Beginning of Podcast

Fred

So, Dustin, thank you so much for doing this. I’ve been following your journey for a long time. I mean, like way back from the great Fightville documentary days. I watched your –

Dustin

It’s crazy to think. I was just talking yesterday. I just got back to South Florida to start my training camp, and I was in the sauna after training yesterday, and there was a young, younger fighter in there, and they started talking about The Fightville documentary. And I was just sitting back like, I think that documentary was released in 2011. It’s crazy to think that 12 years have gone by since then. Man, time’s flying.

Fred

It’s crazy. I remember watching it and seeing like, Wow, this guy Dustin Poirier, he seems awesome. Like, but is he like really a legit fighter? Like, is he really going to make it? You know, I remember, like-

Dustin

Still standing, man. Still standing.

Fred

Super cool. And along your journey, obviously, I remember like the, the big memorable moments, like your gut-wrenching loss to Conor in 2014, you know, a fight that in many ways made him, I mean, you were the first really legit top-ten guy that he faced. And then after that, you just bouncing back, going up a weight class, which was super surprising at the time, and just rewriting your story from there. So, becoming interim champ in 2019, beating pound for pound king at the time, Max Holloway becoming a number one contender. Fight of the night performance of the night. I don’t even know how many times. And then facing Conor again, not once, but twice, the biggest star in the game and defeating him decisively both times. I mean, really, as a UFC fighter, you’re known in the industry as a true sportsman, respectful to a fault, the fighter who brings the warrior spirit, but also a humble and very relatable approach to the game. So, Dustin Poirier, thank you so much for doing this. It’s a real honor to have you here with me today.

Dustin

I appreciate that, man. Thanks for having me on.

Chapter 1

Fred

Awesome. So I’d like to start with the question of violence, because, despite its popularity, MMA still has a lot of detractors out there in society, people who say it condones violence and like fighting as a way to resolve disputes. You’re in many ways the opposite of the stereotype that people think of when they think of like a meathead fighter. You’re super soft-spoken, you’re humble, you’re a family man. I was talking to your manager Ben and saying how much of a girl dad you are. You’re a super active member of your community. You’re involved in philanthropy, which I want to get to a little bit later. At the same time, like real UFC fans know that you can bring the pain and the violence when needed even more than the vast majority of professional fighters, which is saying a lot. I’m curious about how you frame the issue of violence in your life. How did you learn to sort of channel and control it growing up and how do you make sure it doesn’t come out at the wrong time? Like sometimes happens with a lot of other fighters?

Dustin

Yeah, I think, you know, when I was younger, I used to get in a lot of fights, getting a lot of scuffles. And then when I was like 17 years old, I found boxing and started wanting to box, kind of putting my energy and focus into that. But I mean, violence is part of human nature. You know, aggression and fighting is in our blood. That’s why I feel like, you know, in schools, when I was in middle schools when two kids got into it, there’s a crowd surrounding them running around. It’s just instinct to run there, you know, and it’s in our blood. And to get to use that and develop it over the years and focus on combat sports and put all my energy into that really helped me found my footing in my way in life. You know, it’s provided a beautiful life for me and my family at this point. You know, at the beginning, it was just something I loved to do. It wasn’t paying the bills. It was a hobby that I just fell in love with, you know, competing as an amateur, learning, getting pushed in the gym, the camaraderie between my friends in the gym and coaches. It’s just a place that I enjoyed. It was a safe place for me to work and let out frustrations and aggression and focus on something as a young guy. And it just turned into this career for me, man, and it’s been incredible. What a journey.

Fred

It’s interesting how you put it that fighting is like natural and human nature when you see like all the anti-bullying movement today in the schools where they try to sort of eliminate all traces of violence and, you know, the kids maybe don’t grow up learning how to defend themselves as much as like a previous generation. Do you think that that’s like maybe there’s a better approach, Maybe it’s better to learn how to actually defend yourself and control it, because there may come points in time where you have a bully that actually shows up, or you have an injustice, and it’s kind of important to know how to stand up for yourself?

Dustin

Yeah, I think everybody should, you know, especially children. I mean, not just for the self-defense things that something like Jujitsu would give you. Just testing yourself and learning about yourself through martial arts is a great thing that I found later in life. I wish I was in it at an earlier age, but I think it’s great for anybody that, like I said, not just for self-defense. That’s great. You do need to know how to defend yourself and carry yourself around people, especially in those kind of positions if you’re being bullied and things like that. But just to uplift who you are and to learn about yourself through martial arts is a great way to do it.

Chapter 2

Fred

You’ve shared the octagon with literally some of the toughest fighters on the planet you fought for probably some of the toughest divisions the UFC has ever had over the last ten years, right? The divisions you actually fight in, and even inside the UFC are known as being the toughest, I mean, a real shark tank of fighters. And I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that most ordinary people would crack under that kind of pressure. How do you manage the nerves and the emotions that come before a big fight when you know you’re going to face probably a lot of adversity? How do you transform that nervous energy into fuel for your performances?

Dustin

At the beginning of my career, I was very uncomfortable with those, you know, with those feelings of the nerves, the butterflies, the uncertainty of what I’m about to walk into. But that’s what fighting is, you know, over the years. And just learning about fighting and learning about myself through failures and through victories, It’s just part of the journey when you do this. I don’t think those feelings ever go away. If they do, you need to stop. You know, I want to I use that as momentum to carry me through. When I’m in the locker room, and I’m a nervous wreck because I’m what we do. The whole world is watching, and we’re going to try to hurt each other. That’s the name of the game. And out there, no matter how prepared you are, I had a great- you know, I can have a great nine-week training camp, feel the best I’ve ever felt, but I’m still walking when I walk through that arena and step out in there and walk to that octagon is the theatre of the unknown. No matter how prepared I am, anything, there’s a chance that anything can still happen. And I just use that as motivation and try to embrace those feelings honestly. You know, they’re still there very much, but I’m just more familiar with them, and I know they’re coming out here in a few weeks. You know, I’ll be in the same position I’ve been in, time and time again in the locker room, warming up here in the crowd, roar, know my time is coming, looking up at the clock, you know, just waiting for it to happen. I just have to deal with those, I don’t let them control me. I use them to push me.

Fred

Yeah. I feel like in your career, something switched at some point. I mean, early in your career, used to sometimes fight angry or take things a little bit more personally. But at some point, you seem to switch your mindset and started seeing things along the lines of, you know, it’s not about the person, it’s about their style or, you know, the second time you fought Conor, you were just way cooler about it. You were – you didn’t have this kind of emotional approach. You know, he talked trash, and you’d be like, Yeah, it’s cool. Whatever. It’s just business. And I’m also thinking after your fight with Michael Chandler, where he pulled some dirty tactics in the middle of the fight, you were just like, you just talked about, like, not panicking, like, only controlling what I can control. Something you just said right now as well. Have you done any kind of, like, mental work to kind of change your mindset, to kind of move on from like sort of taking things more personally, more emotionally, and becoming almost like more stoic and clearheaded about the whole thing and the whole challenge? And do you feel that doing this helped you achieve even a higher level of toughness in a way?

Dustin

Yeah, it just, I definitely did exactly what you’re saying. To me, fighting is still, I mean, it’s a one-on-one competition with the world watching. Like I said before, we’re going to try to hurt each other. So, it is very personal. I know what you’re going to try to do to me, and I’m going to try to do the same thing to you. So, there is a personal aspect of what we’re going to do. We’re going to try to hurt each other and take the win from each other and, you know, try to beat each other’s will and break each other mentally and physically. So, it is very personal. But to detach myself from that in these competitions now is something I have been working on. Yeah, overall, probably over the last six years, I’ve been doing some practices. I learned through a mental coach and just trying to remove the negativity, the thoughts, the voices, and the outside of the circle. Like I always say, I draw the circle, and one on the inside I can control. I just focus on that man. Everything else is noise. I know what I need to do as long as I check the boxes that I need to check; what’s going to happen is going to happen, you know?

Fred

Cool. So, really like –

Dustin

Yeah, I do love a lot of things from stoicism.

Fred

Yeah. Cause that, that dichotomy of control, right? Like, if I don’t control it, it’s completely on the outside. I don’t, I don’t give it any energy, I don’t give it any, any sort of momentum over myself. And you just kind of really control what’s inside the circle as much as you can.

Dustin

Right. And into that uncomfortable, into that unsure walk that I’m going to make. That’s the obstacle is the way, you know, I need to get out the way I need to go.

Fred

I love that, I love that, and do you also like play with like things like meditation or breathwork, like any other practices that helped you along that challenge?

Dustin

Yeah, I do meditate. It’s not a regular thing. Like I’m not doing it every day, but at least once a week when I have quiet time in the morning. I’ll stretch before practice and kind of just get my mind, you know, file my thoughts in order before I go out. And what I’m going to try to do in training. What are the goals of this training session? What am I looking for out of myself in these performances when I’m training, and I try to just focus on that thing and keep it in my mind during training as well. Just try to slow my mind down because it’s always running, and it doesn’t stop. I’m always, I have trouble sleeping at night. I can never turn it off.

Fred

Of course. I mean, most people will go away from the challenges. You not only go towards the challenges, you go towards the highest possible challenges in your field. I mean, you’re always fighting the toughest guys over and over again. I’m curious, when you’re in the dressing room right before a fight and you say, like even to this day you’re kind of like a nervous wreck, and there’s no way to eliminate the reality of what’s about to happen. You’re about to walk in there with another certified killer, and you guys are going to try to do bad things to each other. That’s just the reality of it, you guys, it’s sort of accepted. But do you do anything like do you have any like, like mindset stuff or breathing stuff or like, did you get into like incantations or anything like that? Like those old-school warrior practices right before you walk out? Is there anything you do to kind of get you in the right mind frame?

Dustin

No, actually, the night of the fight in the locker room, I warm up, you know, try to keep it fun with my team, have a good time, like keep it playful like we do in the gym. That makes me feel the most comfortable, even though what I’m about to walk out there and do is stressful. I try to keep that same feeling we have in the gym, so it crosses over to the performance because that’s when I’m having fun, that’s when I perform my best. But like the breathing and the meditation is definitely done fight week. You know, I’m spending a week or so in a city that I’ve never been most of these fights, and I’m going do these media things, going to a training session, and I’m just at my Airbnb for a week with lots of downtime. So, you know, you can’t let those when that downtime happens, that’s when those thoughts can creep in, and you can start overthinking stuff. That’s when I really, really focus on my mindset when it gets quiet when I’m back at the hotel or my Airbnb fight week.

Fred

Yeah, I ask these questions because I’m really interested in your mindset, because you are, so, I kind of follow the UFC a little bit, and I see all the different approaches. I’m kind of very interested in the different approaches and the mindset work, and when I see somebody able to reinvent themselves the way you have and kind of reach higher levels, and you’re one of those fighters who has figured out the ability to sort of turn things around. And I mean that not only during the fight, but also between fights. So, after like an excruciating loss, let’s say, like that first loss to Conor or the loss to Khabib, you’re like, you can tell that you’re like, devastated, right? You’re there, and you’re clearly like you’ve worked so hard towards this goal. But then, after that, you seem to be able to turn it around and find a way to sort of come back to the best version of yourself for the next fight. You don’t let it bring you down like a lot of guys, you see a lot of people like negative momentum. You don’t seem to be you seem to have figured out how to turn the adversity around into a sort of like learning from it and reaching a higher level. I just wonder, is this something you train? Is it something that you’re aware of, or is it something that was just naturally you’ve always been like that.

Dustin

It’s something I learned over the years of competing. You know, I’d be lying if I didn’t say that days after defeats like that, I don’t have down days, you know, I definitely do. But I know what’s always made me feel better is getting back in the gym, working on things like just submerging myself in work, and drowning out everything that’s always made me feel better. So that’s just what I’ve been doing my whole career. Honestly that the Khabib loss was one of the toughest ones for me because, obviously it was for the world championship, and I lost. But I had hip surgery right after, so I had a long period of time where over eight weeks where I couldn’t walk, I couldn’t put any weight on my leg because I had hip surgery, and I wasn’t able to do what I normally do after losses, which is just jump in the gym, two days drown out all the thoughts, all the noise, just trying to get better. So that one was one like that was a mental hurdle I had to get over after that loss.

Fred

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And since I’m curious because I remember that fight very well, and a lot of people think that you’ve come the closest to beating Khabib. You had him in that guillotine that even he said was extremely deep. And then so a lot of people will say, oh, you know, like it’s a technical thing like if you. So, I wonder, like when you go back to the gym after, is it really a technical thing? Is it really like, look, man, it was just everything’s going 100 miles an hour. The guy’s an animal. It’s like you’re the cardio is going all over the place. Is it really sometimes like, like cleaning up the technique, or is it just there’s just a lot more going on than people realize?

Dustin

It’s both of those, for sure. You know, things are going 1000 miles an hour. You are sweaty, you’re exhausted. Most of the time, you’re bleeding. You’re in an uncomfortable position, but a small flow and technique or stop something from being a submission that finishes a fight or the submission that gets you put in a bad position. You know. But we do go back to the gym and try to work on the things right after fights like that. What could I have done better to stop him from getting my back to – or finish that choke that I had on him? It’s all in the details, man.

Fred

And I wonder how much or how much you guys can replicate that kind of adversity in the gym without sort of breaking down the body.

Dustin

We break the body down. We break the body down. Oh, yeah. We push hard, man. We push hard.

Fred

You must be pushing yourself pretty hard for this one, and I will get back to it.

Chapter 3

Fred

But you’re also -known as a fighter who has this sense of community and sense of purpose. Your nonprofit, The Good Fight Foundation, does a tremendous amount of good for underserved communities in Louisiana. It’s crazy. I was reading an article the other day, the top 15 most dangerous cities in the United States, and three of those were in the state of Louisiana. It’s just crazy how much poverty and violence still exist to this day. So, and you often make a point to say that, you know, you’re if you’re a fighter, but you’re also fighting a bigger fight. You’re grateful for the entire journey. So almost like a spiritual side that we don’t often hear from a lot of fighters. Can you talk a little bit about how helping others and developing this broader sense of purpose, this broader sense of community, change your approach to life and maybe even to fighting in a way?

Dustin

Yeah. Let me see how I can start off start talking about that. The thing is, you know, I’m going to go in there and fight for me and my family regardless. That’s first things first. I’m going in there to provide for me and my family to take another step closer to that world championship, to an opportunity to make more money, to put myself in a better position. More people can see what I’m doing. You know, I have a bigger platform, but at the same time, there’s a lot of people who don’t have that chance to be in front of the masses, and their voices heard. And if I’m going to do all those things for my family, regardless, why not throw something else on my back and try to bring awareness to things going on in Louisiana or further than that. You know, we’ve done some great things in Uganda with Justin Wren in “Fight For The Forgotten.” So, it’s expanded beyond Louisiana. But I feel like that’s my duty to do that, you know, to be a voice for these people. If I have an opportunity, I’m just thankful I realize the platform I had, when me and my wife started the foundation and started building it up to what it is now and the momentum it’s got and how it’s grown, and just it’s incredible. I’m blown away by it and by the things we do every year. But I feel like it’s my job. You know, I’m in a position where I understand that people do listen when I talk, and I have huge platforms with these huge fights that I’m in, and I’ve seen it firsthand that people benefit from what we’re doing. So, I just – it’s something I have to do.

Fred

It’s amazing.

Chapter 4

Fred

I know we’re a little bit tight on time because you’ve got a big training camp, obviously, for the BMF belt. But people who follow the UFC know, no, there’s a sort of like a sports aspect that’s like really like, you know, there’s like a regular professional sport, and then there’s an entertainment aspect, and it’s hard sometimes to sort of know exactly where the lines are between the two. And the UFC parent company recently bought the WWE, so a lot of people think it’s going to keep going. More on the entertainment side of things. You’ve been getting into commenting like media commentary lately a little bit, doing more stuff on the media side, and a lot of fans wonder, you know, when you hear all the trash-talking and sometimes get super personal, you know, people don’t know how much of it is fake, how much of it is real. Right? I feel like a lot of fighters say, you know, business is business. It’s just promo. But some of it seems pretty real sometimes, right? You see, like what just happened with, like Colby and Masvidal or Conor and Khabib or even you and Conor to some degree, without disclosing too much from behind the scenes, you can’t tell me it doesn’t get kind of real sometimes. It must.

Dustin

I think a lot of it, you know, with the more money coming into the sport and those entertainment-type people who are making like headlines with everything they say, they’re just going against the grain and causing a ruckus. You know, those people, the more money that comes into the sport, the more I think you’re going to see that people trying to become stars, by whatever way they can. But a lot of it’s fabricated. But there’s I would say more of it’s real. More of it’s really from something. Yeah. There’s a few guys who a lot of it’s fabricated. But like me and Conor, that was real, you know, between us for sure.

Fred

It’s so funny how he flipped because with a second fight, he was so respectful, and he was so kind of like buddy-buddy with you and everything else. And then right when you actually beat him because it was like when he was alpha to you, it was like, Hey, Dustin, you’re a nice guy. But then when you kind of flip the alpha on him, he got very uncomfortable, very fast. Is that kind of how you read the situation?

Dustin

For sure. And maybe that’s something that he was – he thought he needed to fuel him and push him to compete better. You know, all these guys’ mindsets are different. Maybe he thought that him being friendly in that second fight was a downfall for him. You know, I don’t know. I can’t get into his head, but he definitely was a different person each time.

Fred

It’s like he couldn’t faze you anymore. You know, the first time he was like, in your head. And then when he felt like he couldn’t get in there.

Dustin

I just –

Fred

He kind of did –

Dustin

Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s exactly that. The first time he was like he had an aura to him, you know? Like, it wasn’t like I was fighting more than Conor. I was fighting the company. The fans, the critics, you know, just all this noise. And then when the second time out in Abu Dhabi, it was just like I was fighting another man, you know?

Fred

And so, it sounds like the way you describe the first fight, it sounds like the dichotomy of control, like the stoicism stuff hadn’t yet set in.

Dustin

No, no, it’s far from it.

Fred

Yeah, you were still being pulled by those forces.

Dustin

Yeah. Big time, man, for sure.

Fred

Interesting.

Dustin

I still have to fight, and I still have to fight those. Those feelings and things that my mind wants to go to and build up to these fights. You know, like I said, this is still personal to me.

Fred

Yeah, totally.

Chapter 5

Fred

Before we log off, I want to show you something. Check this out. The BMF belt is right here in Montreal. So it’s crazy what happened I remember the first time that the BMF belt was on the line. I was watching the Pay-Per-View. I may or may not have been inebriated. And the UFC says you can buy a BMF belt. So, I’m just like, screw it, I’m buying it as I just purchased it on the spot. I totally forgot about it. Seven months later, I get this package, this heavy package. I’m like, What is this? I open it up, I see the BMF belt. I’m like, what is this? This is silly. So, it happens to be in my studio. And I didn’t know when we scheduled this interview. It wasn’t announced yet that you were going to fight for the BMF belt. But for people who don’t know your fight with Justin Gaethje, it’s only the second BMF fight ever. And for non-fans, it’s reserved for the absolute most fan-friendly fights that you can imagine. The ones with absolute warriors that everybody loves and that really symbolize kind of like this warrior never-say-die mentality. And a lot of it is a testament not only to you but also to your amazing opponent, Justin Gaethje, who embodies a lot of the same qualities I find that you embody. Obviously, this is a big, massive fight you’ve got on July 29th. But does this fight mean a little bit more to you because of this belt right here, the BMF belt, because that’s on the line?

Dustin

That’s fun, for sure. Like, I would love to put that in my, you know, in my living room next to the other belts that I have. And it’s a piece of history and another, you know, accolade, right? But like you said, if there was ever a time to pull the BMF title out with what Justin’s, you know, past has shown is just incredible fights. The same as me. You know, we fought in a fight of the year contender back in 2018. So, this is a rematch. And we’re two of the top guys in the lightweight division. And the fans know, you know, what they’re getting into with this fight, what they’re going to be buying the Pay-Per-View for, they know what it is. So having this BMF on top of that, is just, it makes it fun to me.

Fred

That’s really cool. And are you approaching it a little bit different, do you think? Like Justin’s got this a very reckless approach sometimes, and sometimes he kind of dials it back, and he’s a little bit safer. He seems to be a little bit harder to beat when he’s a little bit safer. Are you preparing for the same fighter, or are you just preparing for any possibility with him?

Dustin

I always prepare for everything, but he’s more technical now. He’s moving his feet better, he’s using his jab better. He’s getting better with his defense. You know, we fought five years ago, so we’re both completely different fighters now. And his last few performances, especially his last one, you know, he fought a lot smarter than he usually does. But I think, at his core, he’s still that reckless guy who wants to brawl. And we’ll find out on July 29th.

Fred

So, I guess the plan is to put him under some adversity and get that dog out and then kind of get him into that mode where you beat him the first time.

Dustin

That’s always the plan. That’s always the plan. Adversity.

Fred

Love it. Thank you so much, Dustin. This is great. I really appreciate it. Good luck at UFC 291, the BMF belt. And good luck with the Good Fight Foundation.

 

Dustin

Thank you so much, man. I’m going to get that strap, and then maybe one day, if I’m out in Canada, I can sign yours.

Fred

Hey, if you’re in Montreal, you’ve got to hit me up. You got to sign mine, and then it’ll make it real in a little bit because I feel ridiculous right now with this thing.

Dustin

I got to win it first. I got to win it first.

Fred

Exactly. All right. Thank you so much, man. Really appreciate it.

Dustin

Thank you, brother.

End of Podcast