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What is our true purpose on this planet?

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It’s other people, right?

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It’s the it’s the good we’re able to do for

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and through other people.

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As the old Chinese proverb would have it,

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we definitely live in interesting times.

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On one hand, we’re bombarded by shallow TikTok

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videos and mindless clickbait all day long.

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On the other,

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there’s this real thirst for meaning and wisdom,

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and it’s much more than cheesy

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self-help or new age content.

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There’s also a real profound interest in ancient ideas.

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Philosopher feet, spirituality and religion.

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Even one of these ideas systems

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dates back to the third century B.C.

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and has often been portrayed as serious or austere.

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But paradoxically, it’s become extremely popular

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with millions of people today.

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And that’s the school of stoicism,

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founded by ancient Greek

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thinkers like Epictetus,

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and take it to new heights

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by the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius.

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Stoicism. Insights are so eternal and powerful.

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They were actually used to develop

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modern therapies to cure depression and anxiety

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in particular CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy,

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one of the most empirically validated ways

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to cure these ailments without the use of drugs.

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I don’t think I’m exaggerating when I say that

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one person in particular

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has been at the head of this

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amazing revival of Stoicism today,

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and he’s my guest in this episode of the podcast,

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multiple time

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number one, New York Times bestselling author Ryan Holiday.

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Ryan’s a really down to earth and humble guy,

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but don’t let this fool you.

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He’s a total unicorn,

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a real force of nature in terms of his creativity,

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his writing skills and productivity,

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and his ability to communicate complex ideas

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in ways that modern audiences can engage with.

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He started his career

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as the first marketing director for American Apparel

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and literally wrote the book on the dark

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arts of digital marketing.

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His book, Trust Me, I’m Lying, is a very fun read,

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but then something unexpected happened.

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He decided to turn his considerable talents

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to reviving ancient wisdom.

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The man literally took his talents to philosophy.

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He completed an apprenticeship

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with a great writer, Robert Green,

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who he calls the goat of nonfiction writing,

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and right from the jump, started writing bestsellers,

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which are popular with everyone

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from NFL athletes and entertainers

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to top executives and entrepreneurs.

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He’s written more than ten bestselling books,

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and the man is not even close to 40 yet.

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And his channels are followed

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by hundreds of thousands of people daily.

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He’s created a true

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and quite unlikely

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philosophy empire in the modern world

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and is a fantastic interpreter of ancient wisdom.

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It was very impressive

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talking to someone who’s developed fingertip feel

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for such a complex, ancient set of ideas.

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And yet who’s easy and fun to have a conversation with.

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I hope you guys have fun learning

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from Ryan Holiday in this episode of the podcast.

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Enjoy.

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Ryan Holiday Welcome.

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Yeah, thanks for having me.

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All right. Thanks for being here.

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So you’re the bestselling author of ten books

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now, many of them on the wisdom of stoic philosophy,

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including the obstacle is the Way

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Ego is the Enemy and your latest book, Courage is Calling.

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You started your career

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as the first marketing director for American Apparel,

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where you were

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the strategist behind some of the most provocative

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and successful campaigns ever in retail fashion.

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Over the years, you’ve worked with several Mavericks,

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thought leaders

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and bestselling authors,

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including Tucker, Max, Tim Ferriss

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and of course, the great Robert GREENE.

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A lesser known fact

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is that you’ve actually won a Grammy Award

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for producing a jazz album in 2017.

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Just pretty, pretty awesome.

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You’re very active as

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a producer,

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not not the producer, But yes, it was a

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it was a weird experience.

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That’s great. I want to talk about that.

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You’re very active on social and traditional media,

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spreading the wisdom of stoicism to a new generation.

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Your Instagram account,

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Daily Stoic, is a source of daily wisdom.

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Tidbits for over a million people.

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I love it. It’s one of my favorite Instagram accounts.

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I’ve been enjoying your books and insights for years now.

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Ryan Holiday It’s a pleasure and honor

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to have you here with me today.

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Yeah, thanks for having me. Awesome.

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So I want to start by talking a little bit

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about your mindset at work.

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Okay.

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First of all, I look at everything you’ve achieved

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and I can’t believe you’re only 34 years old.

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It’s kind of crazy.

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I mean, you’ve achieved

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more than people do an entire lifetimes,

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and not just in one area,

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but in like multiple areas, like marketing,

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consulting, book

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publishing, music production

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and all at world class award winning levels

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at the same time.

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You seem to also

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have this very humble philosophy about work

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on your Grammy trophy.

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The caption you chose to write on it was.

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When you die,

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this will go in the trash

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along with the rest of your accomplishments.

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In your book, Ego is the Enemy.

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You write about how dangerous it is

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to be invested in the story

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you tell about your own specialness

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and how this can actually hold you back from achieving

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great things.

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You know,

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a lot of people

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today were raised on ideas from the self-esteem movement

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in education where they’re told they’re special and unique

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just the way they are.

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And it’s funny

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because you’re technically part

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of the millennial generation,

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and the cliche is we hear a lot of that.

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You know,

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a lot of people are entitled in that

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in the millennial generation.

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But you seem to be the opposite of that cliche

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when it comes to work.

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I read stories about when you started

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working with Robert Green.

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You transcribed hundreds of pages for him.

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You’d read all the books he doesn’t want to read.

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If he needed something in seven days,

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you get it done in three days.

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There’s something very old school about your work

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ethic and self-discipline and your high standards.

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Tell us a little bit

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about your mindset

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when it comes to work,

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how you approach what you do

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and how where does this come from?

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Yeah, I don’t know

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exactly where it comes from,

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and I have been described that way before.

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I don’t know what generation I would.

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I would assign myself like which one I would identify with.

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But I’ve always just been focused on like doing stuff.

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So not talking about stuff, but doing stuff.

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And especially early on in my career,

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that meant there was a lot of things I had to learn first.

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And so by by like when I was working for Robert,

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it’s funny,

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I was just in Los Angeles very briefly,

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and I went to see Robert,

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and it struck me

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how many as I was driving,

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it was like how many times I’d done

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this drive late at night

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to go drop off a manuscript or a page

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or a book that that he’d had me read or something.

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And like

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I thought

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I recalled it very fondly

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because as as sort of grueling

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as it was and sort of unsexy as it was

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at the same time, I was just beyond excited,

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like I really wanted to be a writer.

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And here was one of the greatest living writers

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in the genre that I wanted to be in.

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And this person was letting me not just like, know them

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and not just pay me money,

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but like letting me work on something

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they were making that I would have been excited

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just to read as a fan. And so I think when you

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when you

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find something that matters to you a great deal

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like that, money is not important. Status is important.

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It’s actually love.

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And you’re interested in that thing.

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You’re sort of willing to do anything and everything else

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kind of falls away.

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So I kind of just

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I just really love, like the work that I do.

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And I know that sounds very simple, you know, like, fine,

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you know, do what you love,

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You’ll never work a day in your life.

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I’m not saying that.

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What I’m saying is that, like,

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my publishing output is not because I was like,

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conscious, like, I need to write this many books.

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It’s that it’s more fun

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and enjoyable for me

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to be writing a book than not writing a book.

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And so I always am doing it.

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And in fact, the hardest part, as I’ve got,

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I think early on in my career,

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I was obviously I wanted to be successful at what I did.

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And there’s a certain amount of sort of ego and validation

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in that. You’re Chase as well.

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But like as I’ve as I’ve gotten on this track now,

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the the one thing I don’t like about the process

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and I’m going through it now on the new book is like

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media is like press is not only like not that fun, but

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the hardest part is like, how do I fit it into the schedule

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when what I really want to be doing is writing?

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Like this morning I had to do a bunch of interviews

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and it was like

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the yeah,

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I wasn’t thinking like, Oh,

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this is so fun and validating and cool.

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I important.

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It was like,

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This is really getting in the way of the writing

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that I wanted to do. And so I think

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it at the core it’s about

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like genuinely finding the process enjoyable

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if that you can nail that down.

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Pretty much everything else follows from it.

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Hmm. So it sounds like you’re really invested in the craft.

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So you found this thing that you love writing books

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and then you immerse yourself in the craft so much

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that even the things that may not be

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the most enjoyable parts of it

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because they’re connected to that thing that you love.

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You learn to love them over time.

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Is that fair to say? Yeah.

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And so like a book, for example,

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a book is a very big problem, right? What is it about?

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How will it be set up?

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Who, the characters, etc..

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But then it’s also a number of many smaller problems.

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Right.

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What will Chapter three be?

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Who you open Chapter three with?

259
00:09:27,633 –> 00:09:29,333
How will you arrange the thoughts?

260
00:09:29,333 –> 00:09:30,333
What are you going to include?

261
00:09:30,333 –> 00:09:31,633
What are you not going to include?

262
00:09:31,633 –> 00:09:33,066
Should chapter three be cut?

263
00:09:33,066 –> 00:09:35,466
Because actually it’s redundant with chapter seven.

264
00:09:35,766 –> 00:09:36,033
Right.

265
00:09:36,033 –> 00:09:38,100
It’s all the little pieces

266
00:09:38,533 –> 00:09:40,800
and I think what I really love is

267
00:09:40,800 –> 00:09:42,566
I love the problem solving.

268
00:09:42,566 –> 00:09:44,833
So I love, first off, the big problem.

269
00:09:44,833 –> 00:09:46,233
What should this be?

270
00:09:46,233 –> 00:09:48,366
What’s the angle on it? Why?

271
00:09:48,366 –> 00:09:51,166
Why is it important? Why do I care about it?

272
00:09:51,166 –> 00:09:53,533
But then I break each big problem

273
00:09:53,533 –> 00:09:56,166
up into lots of smaller problems and I focus on those.

274
00:09:56,166 –> 00:09:57,933
And then so day to day, I’m

275
00:09:57,933 –> 00:10:00,400
not even really thinking about writing a book.

276
00:10:00,700 –> 00:10:03,300
I’m thinking about this little thing

277
00:10:03,300 –> 00:10:04,866
that I have to do, like.

278
00:10:04,866 –> 00:10:10,700
And so I’m always zoomed way in on a pretty engaging,

279
00:10:11,466 –> 00:10:13,166
compelling problem

280
00:10:13,166 –> 00:10:16,266
that if I do that enough times cumulatively

281
00:10:16,500 –> 00:10:19,866
a book comes out of the other side of that. Mm

282
00:10:21,000 –> 00:10:21,466
hmm.

283
00:10:21,800 –> 00:10:22,333
Very interesting.

284
00:10:22,333 –> 00:10:24,766
It’s not really spoken like a true craftsman.

285
00:10:24,766 –> 00:10:25,300
And, you know,

286
00:10:25,300 –> 00:10:28,333
we may look at it from the outside as self-discipline,

287
00:10:28,333 –> 00:10:28,566
and you

288
00:10:28,566 –> 00:10:30,000
like pushing yourself to do things,

289
00:10:30,000 –> 00:10:32,100
but the passion and the love that you have

290
00:10:32,100 –> 00:10:33,033
for what you’ve chosen to do

291
00:10:33,033 –> 00:10:34,400
is very, very clear and evident.

292
00:10:34,400 –> 00:10:36,066
And when I look at your career

293
00:10:36,066 –> 00:10:38,200
as a whole, I see sort of two big themes.

294
00:10:38,533 –> 00:10:39,900
The first one

295
00:10:39,900 –> 00:10:41,400
that you started your career

296
00:10:41,400 –> 00:10:44,800
with, let’s call it the dark arts of digital marketing.

297
00:10:44,933 –> 00:10:46,266
Okay. Yeah.

298
00:10:46,266 –> 00:10:48,966
You practically wrote the book on manipulating

299
00:10:48,966 –> 00:10:50,666
digital media to spark publicity.

300
00:10:50,666 –> 00:10:53,133
I mean, you also actually wrote a book on that topic.

301
00:10:53,366 –> 00:10:54,300
Trust me, I’m lying,

302
00:10:54,300 –> 00:10:57,766
which is really, really fun read and very educational, too.

303
00:10:58,066 –> 00:11:00,633
Your your campaigns for American Apparel are epic.

304
00:11:01,200 –> 00:11:03,833
When you started helping Tucker Max

305
00:11:03,833 –> 00:11:05,566
with his infamous classic

306
00:11:05,566 –> 00:11:07,533
I hope they sell Beer in Hell,

307
00:11:07,533 –> 00:11:08,966
which sold millions of copies.

308
00:11:08,966 –> 00:11:11,633
You guys did some pretty hilarious stuff to drive publicity

309
00:11:11,633 –> 00:11:12,300
and some examples.

310
00:11:12,300 –> 00:11:15,400
You created a Facebook boycott of your own product.

311
00:11:15,800 –> 00:11:18,033
You vandalized your own billboards,

312
00:11:18,366 –> 00:11:22,100
You’d make formal complaints about your own offensive ads,

313
00:11:22,633 –> 00:11:23,833
get them banned,

314
00:11:23,833 –> 00:11:26,500
and then put out a press release denouncing the ban

315
00:11:27,033 –> 00:11:28,400
and really hilarious stuff.

316
00:11:28,400 –> 00:11:30,166
And it was also very effective

317
00:11:30,166 –> 00:11:32,400
at driving publicity and awareness about the book.

318
00:11:32,400 –> 00:11:33,600
And that’s why I say the

319
00:11:33,600 –> 00:11:36,333
I call it the dark arts of marketing and publicity.

320
00:11:36,466 –> 00:11:37,233
The second theme,

321
00:11:37,233 –> 00:11:39,533
though, is the one you developed later on,

322
00:11:39,533 –> 00:11:42,400
and it’s about as far from this world as possible.

323
00:11:42,400 –> 00:11:44,400
It’s about taking Stoicism,

324
00:11:44,400 –> 00:11:47,666
this really deep interest effective philosophy

325
00:11:47,666 –> 00:11:49,233
that was pretty obscure from public view

326
00:11:49,233 –> 00:11:50,466
for a very long time, that you’ve done

327
00:11:50,466 –> 00:11:51,833
a great job popularizing

328
00:11:51,833 –> 00:11:53,100
and democratizing

329
00:11:53,100 –> 00:11:55,200
and bringing it to a new generation, to the,

330
00:11:55,200 –> 00:11:57,233
you know, Facebook, Instagram generation

331
00:11:57,233 –> 00:11:59,400
and almost to the contrary of digital marketing.

332
00:11:59,700 –> 00:12:02,200
Stoicism isn’t about selling or manipulating emotions.

333
00:12:02,200 –> 00:12:04,466
It’s about developing inner fortitude

334
00:12:04,466 –> 00:12:07,600
and not giving in to superficial passions

335
00:12:07,600 –> 00:12:09,133
and overcoming adversity

336
00:12:09,133 –> 00:12:10,566
and not worrying about what

337
00:12:10,566 –> 00:12:12,900
you can’t control and all that good stuff.

338
00:12:12,900 –> 00:12:14,333
How did you transition

339
00:12:14,333 –> 00:12:16,400
from the one to the other in your life?

340
00:12:16,433 –> 00:12:17,933
What led to that switch for you?

341
00:12:17,933 –> 00:12:20,000
Was it an experience, a realization?

342
00:12:20,100 –> 00:12:21,300
How did this come about?

343
00:12:21,300 –> 00:12:24,166
Well, it’s weird because actually the former

344
00:12:24,166 –> 00:12:26,000
or the latter precedes the former.

345
00:12:26,000 –> 00:12:29,233
So I was introduced to Stoicism when I was in college,

346
00:12:29,466 –> 00:12:31,600
and I sort of was very interested in it

347
00:12:31,900 –> 00:12:33,000
as a philosophy

348
00:12:33,000 –> 00:12:34,333
and I was exploring it

349
00:12:34,333 –> 00:12:35,666
and then also profess

350
00:12:35,666 –> 00:12:38,066
personally, I was sort of very interested

351
00:12:38,066 –> 00:12:38,900
in digital marketing.

352
00:12:38,900 –> 00:12:40,633
And so I kind of had this

353
00:12:40,633 –> 00:12:42,766
I think I say this in interesting.

354
00:12:42,766 –> 00:12:43,666
I’m like,

355
00:12:44,000 –> 00:12:44,266
you know,

356
00:12:44,266 –> 00:12:45,800
we think of the word

357
00:12:45,800 –> 00:12:49,833
disintegrated, meaning that it it fell apart, right?

358
00:12:49,833 –> 00:12:54,000
But actually disintegrated means not integrated. Right?

359
00:12:54,266 –> 00:12:57,300
And so I sort of had these two spheres.

360
00:12:57,566 –> 00:12:59,233
So I sort of very interested in marketing

361
00:12:59,233 –> 00:13:00,566
and what one had to do

362
00:13:00,566 –> 00:13:02,400
to be successful in this world

363
00:13:02,400 –> 00:13:03,800
and how one mastered it,

364
00:13:03,800 –> 00:13:05,800
how one understood the logic of that world.

365
00:13:06,000 –> 00:13:07,266
And then personally,

366
00:13:07,266 –> 00:13:10,166
I was very interested in philosophy for my own development.

367
00:13:10,300 –> 00:13:12,900
I was interested in writing about philosophical ideas,

368
00:13:13,400 –> 00:13:15,500
and I admired great writers like Robert GREENE

369
00:13:15,500 –> 00:13:19,166
who were able to communicate those ideas to people. And so

370
00:13:20,700 –> 00:13:22,900
I sort of kept them separate.

371
00:13:22,900 –> 00:13:23,566
And I

372
00:13:23,566 –> 00:13:25,366
but I grew increasingly

373
00:13:25,366 –> 00:13:28,566
disillusioned with not just the

374
00:13:28,566 –> 00:13:31,200
the marketing world that I was in,

375
00:13:31,600 –> 00:13:34,966
but where that would inevitably take me

376
00:13:35,200 –> 00:13:37,866
and what it would mean

377
00:13:37,866 –> 00:13:42,066
if everyone was acting the way that I was acting right.

378
00:13:42,100 –> 00:13:42,300
Like,

379
00:13:42,300 –> 00:13:44,000
I think one of the things that really struck me

380
00:13:44,000 –> 00:13:44,833
as I was sort of

381
00:13:44,833 –> 00:13:47,666
doing these pranks and these stunts is like,

382
00:13:47,666 –> 00:13:50,000
Look, this is relatively harmless stuff

383
00:13:50,333 –> 00:13:50,966
in that I am

384
00:13:50,966 –> 00:13:54,366
promoting a t shirt company or an author or,

385
00:13:54,600 –> 00:13:56,666
you know, an interesting brand.

386
00:13:56,666 –> 00:13:58,566
But what I really became

387
00:13:58,566 –> 00:14:02,133
suspicious and and alarmed about was

388
00:14:02,400 –> 00:14:05,066
what might someone with worse intentions

389
00:14:05,233 –> 00:14:08,033
or motivations be able to do with these same ideas?

390
00:14:08,200 –> 00:14:11,100
And that’s in part what motivated the book,

391
00:14:11,433 –> 00:14:14,233
which was also an opportunity

392
00:14:14,233 –> 00:14:16,266
to transition from one world to the other,

393
00:14:16,266 –> 00:14:17,466
or at least to integrate

394
00:14:18,600 –> 00:14:20,300
them more closely together.

395
00:14:20,300 –> 00:14:23,666
So I always had this idea that I wanted to be a writer,

396
00:14:23,833 –> 00:14:24,966
and then it was really a question

397
00:14:24,966 –> 00:14:27,333
of what the first book might be.

398
00:14:27,333 –> 00:14:29,133
And so for me, the idea of the first book

399
00:14:29,133 –> 00:14:32,300
could be this thing that I was professionally known for,

400
00:14:32,466 –> 00:14:34,500
that I had an interesting perspective on,

401
00:14:34,500 –> 00:14:36,100
and that by writing about it,

402
00:14:36,100 –> 00:14:39,466
I was also, in a sense, burning the boats behind me

403
00:14:39,633 –> 00:14:41,866
and would have to go do something else.

404
00:14:41,866 –> 00:14:45,033
So, you know, the week that Trust Me Online came out,

405
00:14:45,366 –> 00:14:46,600
I had sold the

406
00:14:46,600 –> 00:14:48,900
I went out with and sold the proposal

407
00:14:48,900 –> 00:14:51,100
for what became the obstacle is the way.

408
00:14:51,433 –> 00:14:54,333
So the transition was pretty abrupt.

409
00:14:54,633 –> 00:14:56,100
But the irony was

410
00:14:56,100 –> 00:14:56,900
when I came out

411
00:14:56,900 –> 00:14:59,400
with Trust me, I’m lying, a lot of my readers were like,

412
00:14:59,766 –> 00:15:02,533
I thought you wrote about ancient philosophy.

413
00:15:02,533 –> 00:15:04,933
And then when Trust Me, Online came out and did well,

414
00:15:05,133 –> 00:15:07,200
and then my second book came out about philosophy,

415
00:15:07,200 –> 00:15:08,100
they were like, But wait,

416
00:15:08,100 –> 00:15:09,300
I thought you wrote about marketing.

417
00:15:09,300 –> 00:15:11,700
So there was kind of these weird parallel tracks,

418
00:15:11,700 –> 00:15:14,133
and then they kind of merged and then one stopped,

419
00:15:14,466 –> 00:15:15,633
you know, altogether.

420
00:15:17,300 –> 00:15:19,100
I wonder if I know that

421
00:15:19,100 –> 00:15:20,400
you’re not super political,

422
00:15:20,400 –> 00:15:22,233
but you do have political consciousness

423
00:15:22,233 –> 00:15:24,400
in some of your writings and some of your posts.

424
00:15:24,800 –> 00:15:27,400
And I’m curious to know if your fear

425
00:15:27,600 –> 00:15:30,133
that some of the dark arts that you studied

426
00:15:30,133 –> 00:15:32,366
and published, that you see them manifest

427
00:15:32,700 –> 00:15:34,400
in the political landscape today?

428
00:15:34,400 –> 00:15:36,766
I’m thinking of like Roger Stone, like

429
00:15:38,100 –> 00:15:41,900
tactics, you know, symbolism.

430
00:15:41,966 –> 00:15:43,900
I have the I’ll give you a terrible example.

431
00:15:43,900 –> 00:15:47,433
There’s a guy named Sam Nunberg, who is an aide to Trump,

432
00:15:48,466 –> 00:15:50,800
who he claims and there’s some verification of it.

433
00:15:51,000 –> 00:15:53,600
So his favorite book is trust Me, I’m like this this guy’s.

434
00:15:54,766 –> 00:15:57,066
And he his claim to fame

435
00:15:57,266 –> 00:16:01,400
is that he gave Donald Trump the idea for the border wall.

436
00:16:02,633 –> 00:16:04,266
And so, yeah, it’s okay.

437
00:16:04,266 –> 00:16:06,366
It’s heavy shit and not exactly

438
00:16:07,300 –> 00:16:10,066
it’s exactly the opposite of the intention of the book.

439
00:16:10,066 –> 00:16:10,533
To me.

440
00:16:10,533 –> 00:16:11,133
The idea was

441
00:16:11,133 –> 00:16:13,733
I wanted to expose how media manipulation work,

442
00:16:14,033 –> 00:16:16,066
hopefully to make it less restrictive. Right.

443
00:16:16,666 –> 00:16:18,700
And then to watch

444
00:16:18,700 –> 00:16:20,533
not just political operatives

445
00:16:20,533 –> 00:16:22,566
inside the United States, but you could also argue

446
00:16:22,800 –> 00:16:25,666
a lot of the disinformation and misinformation tactics

447
00:16:25,900 –> 00:16:27,466
of sort of foreign actors,

448
00:16:27,466 –> 00:16:28,366
whether you’re talking about Russia

449
00:16:28,366 –> 00:16:30,766
or China, relies

450
00:16:30,766 –> 00:16:32,300
on some of the same stuff

451
00:16:32,300 –> 00:16:33,933
that I was talking about in the book.

452
00:16:33,933 –> 00:16:35,166
I’m not saying they got it from me,

453
00:16:35,166 –> 00:16:36,966
but these are the ideas

454
00:16:36,966 –> 00:16:39,900
that I was trying to wake people up about.

455
00:16:40,333 –> 00:16:43,266
You know, in 2011 when I was writing that book.

456
00:16:43,266 –> 00:16:45,200
And so the other terrifying part

457
00:16:45,200 –> 00:16:47,033
is, you know, that book is now ten years old.

458
00:16:48,800 –> 00:16:50,566
I thought I was late,

459
00:16:50,566 –> 00:16:52,033
like when I was writing about this stuff.

460
00:16:52,033 –> 00:16:52,766
I was like,

461
00:16:52,766 –> 00:16:55,033
there is a part of me that was like, everyone knows this.

462
00:16:55,266 –> 00:16:56,033
You know, like,

463
00:16:56,033 –> 00:16:57,200
or if I don’t get this out right

464
00:16:57,200 –> 00:16:58,766
away, it’s going to be irrelevant.

465
00:16:58,766 –> 00:17:02,100
And so for that book to continue to be relevant

466
00:17:02,400 –> 00:17:05,700
is not exactly my definition of success.

467
00:17:05,700 –> 00:17:07,566
I would like to have

468
00:17:07,566 –> 00:17:09,000
been proven wrong

469
00:17:09,000 –> 00:17:12,000
or to have done its job, which is that, you know, people

470
00:17:12,833 –> 00:17:14,633
put up some

471
00:17:14,833 –> 00:17:18,766
relatively obvious defenses against, you know, these

472
00:17:18,966 –> 00:17:22,100
these sort of loopholes.

473
00:17:22,233 –> 00:17:24,900
It’s almost a sort of like Frankenstein phenomenon

474
00:17:24,900 –> 00:17:26,533
where it’s like you create this thing.

475
00:17:26,533 –> 00:17:27,733
And clearly in the book,

476
00:17:27,733 –> 00:17:29,000
anybody who reads the book,

477
00:17:29,000 –> 00:17:31,166
you’re trying to sound some alarm bells, right?

478
00:17:31,200 –> 00:17:32,400
And you’re trying to say like,

479
00:17:32,400 –> 00:17:33,000
hey, guys,

480
00:17:33,000 –> 00:17:35,400
look at how the state of journalism and media

481
00:17:35,400 –> 00:17:37,933
has deteriorated to the point that we can do these things

482
00:17:38,266 –> 00:17:39,033
and they work.

483
00:17:39,033 –> 00:17:40,100
There was yes, of course,

484
00:17:40,100 –> 00:17:41,500
there was the tactical goals

485
00:17:41,500 –> 00:17:43,033
that you had for particular products,

486
00:17:43,033 –> 00:17:44,633
but there was also this larger

487
00:17:44,633 –> 00:17:46,566
point of like raising somewhat

488
00:17:46,566 –> 00:17:49,233
some some red flags about journalism ethics

489
00:17:49,233 –> 00:17:51,600
and about how easy it is to manipulate the system.

490
00:17:51,900 –> 00:17:53,933
And lo and behold, we’re like ten years later.

491
00:17:54,233 –> 00:17:55,533
And if anything,

492
00:17:55,533 –> 00:17:57,233
the media apparatus looks like it’s deterred

493
00:17:57,233 –> 00:18:00,066
even more and even more prone to this kind of manipulation.

494
00:18:01,000 –> 00:18:02,066
That’s exactly right.

495
00:18:02,066 –> 00:18:04,466
I sort of likened it even then.

496
00:18:04,666 –> 00:18:04,933
You know,

497
00:18:04,933 –> 00:18:06,533
sometimes people who are really good

498
00:18:06,533 –> 00:18:08,600
computer hackers will like seek

499
00:18:08,600 –> 00:18:10,200
something out for the challenge of it,

500
00:18:10,200 –> 00:18:13,866
like an FBI database or a major corporation.

501
00:18:14,066 –> 00:18:16,133
But there’s a difference between black hat

502
00:18:16,133 –> 00:18:17,266
and white hat and white hat.

503
00:18:17,266 –> 00:18:19,233
Hackers will hack into something

504
00:18:19,233 –> 00:18:21,800
and then sort of explain how they did it

505
00:18:22,000 –> 00:18:25,600
and alert the people to the vulnerabilities in the system.

506
00:18:25,833 –> 00:18:27,800
To me, that’s what I was doing with that book.

507
00:18:27,800 –> 00:18:30,633
And and I think the fact that I published it in a book

508
00:18:30,933 –> 00:18:33,833
instead of, you know, profiting from it

509
00:18:33,833 –> 00:18:35,966
personally is evidence of that.

510
00:18:35,966 –> 00:18:39,900
But the unfortunately, by not by ignoring that,

511
00:18:40,100 –> 00:18:41,166
we’re now in a position

512
00:18:41,166 –> 00:18:43,400
where people who are much more of the Black

513
00:18:43,400 –> 00:18:45,466
hat variety are still able

514
00:18:45,466 –> 00:18:47,566
to take advantage of these same vulnerabilities

515
00:18:47,566 –> 00:18:49,300
and do so on a regular basis.

516
00:18:49,300 –> 00:18:52,733
And that’s why we’re in this divided, dysfunctional,

517
00:18:53,633 –> 00:18:56,700
frankly, delusional media environment

518
00:18:56,700 –> 00:18:58,133
that we’re in, where it’s impossible

519
00:18:58,133 –> 00:19:00,233
to discern fact from fiction.

520
00:19:00,233 –> 00:19:02,666
It’s weaponized against vulnerable communities.

521
00:19:02,666 –> 00:19:06,800
And and basically everyone’s unhappy.

522
00:19:06,800 –> 00:19:08,066
And it’s very interesting.

523
00:19:08,066 –> 00:19:09,933
I find a potential running thread

524
00:19:09,933 –> 00:19:13,666
between your two passions or your large endeavors is

525
00:19:14,400 –> 00:19:16,266
maybe about controlling fear. Right?

526
00:19:16,266 –> 00:19:16,600
You’ve written

527
00:19:16,600 –> 00:19:16,933
you’ve written

528
00:19:16,933 –> 00:19:18,166
about how in your consulting work,

529
00:19:18,166 –> 00:19:19,433
when you go to people about,

530
00:19:19,433 –> 00:19:21,666
you know, different things they can do with their ads

531
00:19:21,666 –> 00:19:24,133
and, you know, asked whether you could

532
00:19:24,133 –> 00:19:26,466
you could deploy this for other fashion companies,

533
00:19:26,766 –> 00:19:27,466
you said, no, you know,

534
00:19:27,466 –> 00:19:29,500
most of them are too afraid to do this.

535
00:19:29,533 –> 00:19:29,833
Right.

536
00:19:29,833 –> 00:19:30,466
There’s a

537
00:19:30,466 –> 00:19:32,233
so there’s a fearlessness

538
00:19:32,233 –> 00:19:34,633
that is implied in everything you do.

539
00:19:35,000 –> 00:19:37,433
And there’s this this this approach to fear,

540
00:19:38,300 –> 00:19:40,533
overcoming fear to achieve your

541
00:19:40,566 –> 00:19:41,600
your outcomes

542
00:19:41,600 –> 00:19:44,033
seems to be seems to be one of the running threads

543
00:19:44,033 –> 00:19:45,266
I find in your work.

544
00:19:45,266 –> 00:19:47,033
Yeah, I guess. I guess that’s true.

545
00:19:47,033 –> 00:19:48,466
I mean, to me what I have always

546
00:19:48,466 –> 00:19:48,900
just found

547
00:19:48,900 –> 00:19:51,400
from a marketing perspective, whatever you’re doing,

548
00:19:51,400 –> 00:19:52,100
whatever industry,

549
00:19:52,100 –> 00:19:57,733
and that there’s a premium attached to being boring.

550
00:19:58,066 –> 00:20:01,766
So if you’re boring, if you’re afraid, if you’re timid, it

551
00:20:01,900 –> 00:20:03,366
everything costs more.

552
00:20:03,366 –> 00:20:05,400
Everything is harder

553
00:20:05,400 –> 00:20:07,633
when you’re interesting, when you’re unique,

554
00:20:07,633 –> 00:20:11,866
when you’re the only one doing a thing, it stands out.

555
00:20:11,866 –> 00:20:13,533
Like, like when I

556
00:20:13,533 –> 00:20:14,766
when I

557
00:20:14,766 –> 00:20:17,100
proposed a first my first book about Stoicism,

558
00:20:17,100 –> 00:20:19,433
my publisher was not very excited.

559
00:20:19,433 –> 00:20:21,733
You know, it’s an obscure school of ancient philosophy.

560
00:20:21,733 –> 00:20:22,700
They were not like,

561
00:20:22,700 –> 00:20:24,400
let’s back up the Brink’s truck

562
00:20:24,400 –> 00:20:25,866
and just throw money at you.

563
00:20:25,866 –> 00:20:28,200
In fact, they offered me considerably less money

564
00:20:28,200 –> 00:20:29,766
than I got for my first book.

565
00:20:29,766 –> 00:20:34,700
And the irony now is that on a regular basis, I’m pitched

566
00:20:35,300 –> 00:20:37,433
for my podcast and such.

567
00:20:37,433 –> 00:20:38,266
I’m pitched

568
00:20:38,266 –> 00:20:41,400
other people who are writing about Stoicism, right?

569
00:20:41,400 –> 00:20:43,800
And so their deals are all of

570
00:20:44,100 –> 00:20:47,433
are easier for higher amounts of money based on,

571
00:20:47,700 –> 00:20:49,033
you know, the

572
00:20:49,200 –> 00:20:51,300
just the track record that I have

573
00:20:51,300 –> 00:20:53,933
and the media attention that I brought to this space.

574
00:20:54,366 –> 00:20:55,800
Now, I’m not like jealous of it.

575
00:20:55,800 –> 00:20:56,600
That’s not why I’m putting out.

576
00:20:56,600 –> 00:20:57,600
What I’m saying is

577
00:20:57,600 –> 00:21:01,066
the irony is it was easier for them in some ways. Right.

578
00:21:01,466 –> 00:21:03,100
But it will ultimately actually

579
00:21:03,100 –> 00:21:05,466
be much harder for them to be successful

580
00:21:05,833 –> 00:21:08,266
because people don’t actually

581
00:21:08,266 –> 00:21:09,866
have that much room

582
00:21:09,866 –> 00:21:13,466
for that many different flavors of one thing.

583
00:21:13,766 –> 00:21:17,200
So you see this in all different

584
00:21:17,600 –> 00:21:21,300
you know, most markets are winner take all markets, right?

585
00:21:21,300 –> 00:21:22,433
And so

586
00:21:22,466 –> 00:21:23,900
people will see that someone’s

587
00:21:23,900 –> 00:21:26,533
successful in a market and think, oh,

588
00:21:26,566 –> 00:21:28,233
I could be successful there, too.

589
00:21:28,233 –> 00:21:29,566
And it’s

590
00:21:29,666 –> 00:21:32,200
the irony is the fact that someone is already there

591
00:21:32,200 –> 00:21:32,900
and successful

592
00:21:32,900 –> 00:21:34,433
makes it safer,

593
00:21:34,433 –> 00:21:35,700
but also less likely

594
00:21:35,700 –> 00:21:38,166
that you will be significantly successful.

595
00:21:38,166 –> 00:21:41,433
So I’m always interested in what are other people

596
00:21:42,000 –> 00:21:42,766
not doing.

597
00:21:42,766 –> 00:21:45,133
That’s what I want to do or what are other people doing.

598
00:21:45,133 –> 00:21:49,200
Let’s not do that. And that’s how do you stand out.

599
00:21:49,766 –> 00:21:52,133
Fearlessness kind of feels like a strong word

600
00:21:52,133 –> 00:21:53,166
to describe that,

601
00:21:53,166 –> 00:21:57,166
but I am always interested in being different or unique

602
00:21:58,000 –> 00:22:01,733
because ironically, it’s scarier to be like everyone else.

603
00:22:01,733 –> 00:22:06,000
It’s just it’s a riskier proposition.

604
00:22:06,000 –> 00:22:06,933
So let’s talk about the inner

605
00:22:06,933 –> 00:22:08,066
phenomenon of fear a little bit.

606
00:22:08,066 –> 00:22:10,133
I think you started working with Robert Green on the book

607
00:22:10,133 –> 00:22:12,433
The 50th Law that you wrote with 50 Cent

608
00:22:12,433 –> 00:22:15,500
on the importance of being Fearless, and her latest book,

609
00:22:15,500 –> 00:22:17,833
which I’ve just preordered, by the way, is called

610
00:22:17,833 –> 00:22:19,833
Courage, is calling on one of the great

611
00:22:20,633 –> 00:22:22,266
four stoic virtues of courage.

612
00:22:22,266 –> 00:22:23,400
And in a lot of ways

613
00:22:23,400 –> 00:22:25,500
we seem to be living in a climate of fear today,

614
00:22:25,500 –> 00:22:26,266
almost panic.

615
00:22:26,266 –> 00:22:27,500
I mean, people are scared of everything.

616
00:22:27,500 –> 00:22:28,633
They’re scared of

617
00:22:28,633 –> 00:22:29,333
whether it’s COVID

618
00:22:29,333 –> 00:22:30,966
or big government or big corporations

619
00:22:30,966 –> 00:22:34,433
or grand global conspiracy or the evil people

620
00:22:34,466 –> 00:22:36,300
on the other side of the political aisle

621
00:22:36,300 –> 00:22:37,500
or the rise of China,

622
00:22:37,500 –> 00:22:39,766
or just like being judged on social media

623
00:22:39,766 –> 00:22:41,266
and being hated on and off.

624
00:22:41,266 –> 00:22:43,200
For sure there are real challenges out there,

625
00:22:43,200 –> 00:22:44,700
but there’s an emotional climate,

626
00:22:44,700 –> 00:22:46,000
it seems almost drenched

627
00:22:46,000 –> 00:22:48,066
in the energy of fear and negativity.

628
00:22:48,300 –> 00:22:48,900
And you’re right,

629
00:22:48,900 –> 00:22:50,100
this and the obstacle is the way

630
00:22:50,100 –> 00:22:51,466
in which the fantastic book

631
00:22:51,466 –> 00:22:53,700
I probably might my favorite one of yours.

632
00:22:53,700 –> 00:22:55,900
Don’t let that negativity in.

633
00:22:55,900 –> 00:22:58,500
Don’t let those emotions even get started.

634
00:22:58,866 –> 00:23:02,133
Just say No, thank you. I can’t afford to panic.

635
00:23:02,566 –> 00:23:04,800
This is the skill that must be cultivated.

636
00:23:04,800 –> 00:23:07,300
Freedom from disturbance and perturbation

637
00:23:07,566 –> 00:23:09,366
so you can focus your energy

638
00:23:09,366 –> 00:23:11,933
exclusively on solving problems

639
00:23:12,200 –> 00:23:14,066
rather than reacting to them.

640
00:23:14,066 –> 00:23:15,866
How do you train yourself

641
00:23:15,866 –> 00:23:17,500
to tune out all the noise

642
00:23:17,500 –> 00:23:19,633
and negativity coming from every direction it seems,

643
00:23:20,000 –> 00:23:21,100
and those emotions

644
00:23:21,100 –> 00:23:23,166
and the fear that it can give rise to

645
00:23:23,166 –> 00:23:25,500
and just stay on task and stay on your path

646
00:23:25,500 –> 00:23:27,600
and keep executing at such a high level.

647
00:23:27,600 –> 00:23:29,066
Well, one of the things I tell myself

648
00:23:29,066 –> 00:23:31,833
is that the thing I’m trying to do is very hard, right?

649
00:23:32,000 –> 00:23:35,400
Whether it’s giving a talk or writing a book or it’s

650
00:23:35,433 –> 00:23:37,800
starting a business or whatever, it’s very hard

651
00:23:38,633 –> 00:23:42,233
and most people don’t succeed at it, right?

652
00:23:42,566 –> 00:23:47,700
And so if it’s hard and the margin of error is low,

653
00:23:48,200 –> 00:23:50,766
then time spent worrying.

654
00:23:50,766 –> 00:23:55,066
Listening to doubters, being anxious,

655
00:23:55,666 –> 00:23:57,933
focusing on these things that you don’t really control

656
00:23:58,300 –> 00:24:00,666
is only taking away

657
00:24:00,966 –> 00:24:04,466
from a finite amount of cognitive ability

658
00:24:04,633 –> 00:24:07,133
or resources that you have to focus on the problem.

659
00:24:07,333 –> 00:24:10,833
I actually have a quote here on the side of my wall

660
00:24:10,833 –> 00:24:12,300
that I’ve been thinking about

661
00:24:12,300 –> 00:24:13,966
as I’ve been writing this new series,

662
00:24:13,966 –> 00:24:15,833
and it’s a quote from Martha Graham,

663
00:24:15,833 –> 00:24:18,566
and she says, Never be afraid of the material.

664
00:24:18,833 –> 00:24:20,866
The material knows when you’re frightened

665
00:24:20,866 –> 00:24:22,500
and it will not help.

666
00:24:22,500 –> 00:24:24,900
And what I like about that is the idea of like

667
00:24:24,900 –> 00:24:26,366
you should be tackling

668
00:24:26,366 –> 00:24:29,500
really ambitious, challenging things, things

669
00:24:29,500 –> 00:24:31,400
that are a reach for you,

670
00:24:31,400 –> 00:24:33,500
that it’s harder than something you’ve done before.

671
00:24:33,666 –> 00:24:35,866
It’s something maybe you don’t quite understand.

672
00:24:36,400 –> 00:24:40,300
It’s it’s a big leap, right? So you should be doing that.

673
00:24:40,666 –> 00:24:41,933
But then the irony is,

674
00:24:41,933 –> 00:24:44,700
if you are afraid, if you’re doing it

675
00:24:44,700 –> 00:24:47,700
now out of timidity or doubt,

676
00:24:47,700 –> 00:24:49,633
or you’re coming at it from a place of

677
00:24:50,733 –> 00:24:52,000
from

678
00:24:53,366 –> 00:24:56,700
uncertainty, you will likely

679
00:24:57,366 –> 00:24:59,500
it will be harder, you will not be successful.

680
00:24:59,500 –> 00:25:01,466
So like when I’m writing

681
00:25:01,466 –> 00:25:03,733
this series of books, I’m not going, this is so hard.

682
00:25:03,733 –> 00:25:06,500
You’ve never done a four book series before.

683
00:25:06,633 –> 00:25:07,933
What if it doesn’t work?

684
00:25:07,933 –> 00:25:10,466
I’m just thinking it’s a four book series.

685
00:25:10,533 –> 00:25:13,500
You’ve already written four books before.

686
00:25:13,500 –> 00:25:16,400
You know, thinking about the totality of the problem

687
00:25:16,633 –> 00:25:18,166
is going to be overwhelming.

688
00:25:18,166 –> 00:25:19,766
What do you have to do today?

689
00:25:19,766 –> 00:25:25,066
Let’s just do that and then we’ll take it from there.

690
00:25:25,066 –> 00:25:26,200
So you’re very practical

691
00:25:26,200 –> 00:25:27,666
in how you break down these philosophical.

692
00:25:27,666 –> 00:25:29,100
I almost think like in the

693
00:25:29,100 –> 00:25:30,266
in Aristotle’s tradition,

694
00:25:30,266 –> 00:25:32,500
like the emphasis on practical wisdom. Right.

695
00:25:32,766 –> 00:25:35,433
It’s not like this crazy construction.

696
00:25:35,433 –> 00:25:37,700
It’s just like, look, I have limited bandwidth.

697
00:25:37,833 –> 00:25:39,833
What I’m doing is difficult.

698
00:25:39,833 –> 00:25:40,966
If I and then

699
00:25:40,966 –> 00:25:41,400
it just

700
00:25:41,400 –> 00:25:43,600
logically sort of coheres

701
00:25:43,600 –> 00:25:44,033
with that,

702
00:25:44,033 –> 00:25:46,033
that if you spend energy and time

703
00:25:46,466 –> 00:25:47,700
focusing on, you know,

704
00:25:47,700 –> 00:25:49,333
what other people are saying, what other people,

705
00:25:49,333 –> 00:25:51,166
you’re just removing that.

706
00:25:51,166 –> 00:25:52,966
It’s a very practical consideration.

707
00:25:52,966 –> 00:25:54,866
I find it very, very interesting and

708
00:25:54,866 –> 00:25:56,666
and very helpful actually,

709
00:25:56,666 –> 00:25:59,000
to just break it down in very simple,

710
00:25:59,200 –> 00:26:02,066
pragmatic terms like this, just, you know,

711
00:26:02,100 –> 00:26:03,933
attempting big things.

712
00:26:03,933 –> 00:26:07,300
You need. Every ounce of energy makes a ton of sense. Yeah.

713
00:26:08,500 –> 00:26:08,766
Yeah.

714
00:26:08,766 –> 00:26:10,433
I think it’s it’s just about right.

715
00:26:10,433 –> 00:26:13,500
It’s a resource allocation issue to me.

716
00:26:13,500 –> 00:26:15,600
Mm hmm. Interesting.

717
00:26:15,600 –> 00:26:17,666
So what would be a great fear

718
00:26:17,666 –> 00:26:20,133
that you you’d say you’ve overcome in your life

719
00:26:20,700 –> 00:26:22,500
that has actually helped

720
00:26:22,500 –> 00:26:24,000
you become who you’ve become today?

721
00:26:24,000 –> 00:26:26,733
What what was a great example of a fear

722
00:26:26,733 –> 00:26:28,333
that you had maybe at one point

723
00:26:28,333 –> 00:26:28,866
where you feel

724
00:26:28,866 –> 00:26:31,933
that your ability to overcome that contributed to,

725
00:26:32,200 –> 00:26:34,633
you know, turning into who you are today?

726
00:26:34,633 –> 00:26:35,766
Well, I’ve got a bunch of them, but

727
00:26:35,766 –> 00:26:37,366
but sort of two that were related.

728
00:26:37,366 –> 00:26:39,533
There’s sort of two big transition points in my life

729
00:26:39,533 –> 00:26:42,066
were first when I dropped out of college to work for Robert

730
00:26:42,366 –> 00:26:44,600
and then second, when after I had

731
00:26:45,466 –> 00:26:47,400
gone on and had a career in marketing

732
00:26:47,400 –> 00:26:49,033
to leave the marketing world.

733
00:26:49,033 –> 00:26:51,900
So I’ve like the sure thing of a salary to become a writer.

734
00:26:52,200 –> 00:26:54,266
Then you can argue maybe the decision to go from

735
00:26:54,266 –> 00:26:56,100
one kind of writing to the other kind of writing,

736
00:26:56,100 –> 00:26:57,166
but the one,

737
00:26:57,166 –> 00:26:59,733
the three things all have in common,

738
00:26:59,733 –> 00:27:03,500
the idea of sort of leaving the status quo

739
00:27:04,333 –> 00:27:06,400
where the comfort of the present moment

740
00:27:06,400 –> 00:27:09,766
behind for a riskier but potentially

741
00:27:10,766 –> 00:27:13,766
more lucrative or exciting or fulfilling future.

742
00:27:13,966 –> 00:27:14,233
Right.

743
00:27:14,233 –> 00:27:15,266
The decision to

744
00:27:15,266 –> 00:27:18,733
to transition from one thing to another to change horses.

745
00:27:19,866 –> 00:27:21,133
And the first time I did it,

746
00:27:21,133 –> 00:27:24,066
I was like, just beyond terrified, like I could.

747
00:27:24,066 –> 00:27:27,233
I thought I’d end up under a bridge somewhere, you know,

748
00:27:27,366 –> 00:27:29,166
if my family was terrified.

749
00:27:29,166 –> 00:27:31,233
My parents basically, like, disowned me.

750
00:27:31,233 –> 00:27:32,566
It was like the biggest thing

751
00:27:32,566 –> 00:27:34,900
that I had done in my life at that point, right?

752
00:27:34,933 –> 00:27:40,300
Like, I, I wasn’t just like, trying some new thing.

753
00:27:40,533 –> 00:27:42,233
I was blowing up.

754
00:27:42,233 –> 00:27:47,100
You know, 20 years of work and

755
00:27:49,066 –> 00:27:52,666
direction and safety to do in uncertain thing.

756
00:27:53,733 –> 00:27:55,633
But the the interesting thing

757
00:27:55,633 –> 00:27:57,300
that I found almost immediately

758
00:27:57,300 –> 00:28:00,500
thereafter was that it was a lot less scary than I thought.

759
00:28:00,500 –> 00:28:02,700
I remember walking in to drop out

760
00:28:02,700 –> 00:28:06,400
and thinking like it was this sort of irrevocable,

761
00:28:06,600 –> 00:28:08,700
life altering decision.

762
00:28:09,033 –> 00:28:10,100
And I was like,

763
00:28:10,100 –> 00:28:12,700
you know, I’m here to drop out of college for whatever.

764
00:28:12,700 –> 00:28:14,766
And I remember the woman in the office was like,

765
00:28:15,033 –> 00:28:16,600
That’s not a thing.

766
00:28:16,600 –> 00:28:16,933
You know?

767
00:28:16,933 –> 00:28:19,100
She was like, You can take a semester off

768
00:28:19,366 –> 00:28:21,500
and then just not reenroll.

769
00:28:21,500 –> 00:28:23,533
And I was like, Oh, okay, I’ll do that, you know?

770
00:28:23,833 –> 00:28:26,766
And so I thought I was like, jumping off this cliff.

771
00:28:26,766 –> 00:28:27,400
And I get there

772
00:28:27,400 –> 00:28:28,400
and it’s like,

773
00:28:28,400 –> 00:28:31,133
dude, there’s like stairs just walk down the stairs

774
00:28:31,133 –> 00:28:32,766
and then you can come back up

775
00:28:32,766 –> 00:28:35,066
if you don’t like what you see at the bottom, right?

776
00:28:35,533 –> 00:28:36,733
And so

777
00:28:36,733 –> 00:28:39,000
realizing very quickly that it was a lot

778
00:28:39,000 –> 00:28:41,600
less scary than you think, it’s only scary

779
00:28:41,633 –> 00:28:44,833
because you haven’t done it and was really helpful to me.

780
00:28:44,833 –> 00:28:46,466
And then to see

781
00:28:46,466 –> 00:28:49,166
as I went through that I was stronger than I knew.

782
00:28:49,166 –> 00:28:51,333
I was more talented than I perhaps thought

783
00:28:51,633 –> 00:28:54,000
that I had more control over my life than I thought.

784
00:28:54,833 –> 00:28:56,566
Then allowed me the other mode,

785
00:28:56,566 –> 00:28:58,866
the other sort of pivot moment.

786
00:28:58,866 –> 00:28:59,433
It was

787
00:28:59,433 –> 00:28:59,933
it was like,

788
00:28:59,933 –> 00:29:02,966
Oh, I’ve been at a juncture like this before, right?

789
00:29:02,966 –> 00:29:04,633
If you never have

790
00:29:04,633 –> 00:29:07,300
and you avoid it each time, it gets scarier.

791
00:29:07,633 –> 00:29:10,400
If you go towards it, if you explore it,

792
00:29:10,500 –> 00:29:13,200
then it gets less scary as you go.

793
00:29:13,200 –> 00:29:15,600
So like if you told me tomorrow,

794
00:29:15,600 –> 00:29:16,933
let’s say tomorrow, it was like, Hey,

795
00:29:16,933 –> 00:29:17,666
do you want to

796
00:29:17,666 –> 00:29:20,700
sell everything you own and move to South America

797
00:29:20,700 –> 00:29:23,033
to start a llama farm or something?

798
00:29:23,033 –> 00:29:25,966
If I actually wanted to do that, I’d be like, sure, that’s

799
00:29:26,166 –> 00:29:27,300
I could I could do that.

800
00:29:27,300 –> 00:29:30,100
Like I could figure that out, right? That’s not that.

801
00:29:30,366 –> 00:29:32,833
There are a lot scarier things in the world than that.

802
00:29:32,833 –> 00:29:33,433
Right.

803
00:29:33,433 –> 00:29:34,633
And I imagine, you know,

804
00:29:34,633 –> 00:29:37,266
the first time you run into a building as a firefighter,

805
00:29:37,500 –> 00:29:39,600
the first time you’re under fire as a

806
00:29:39,600 –> 00:29:41,100
Special Forces operator or

807
00:29:43,133 –> 00:29:46,100
you have a similar understanding of, oh, okay.

808
00:29:46,300 –> 00:29:49,433
Part of why this was so intimidating and scary to me

809
00:29:49,633 –> 00:29:51,766
was my lack of familiarity with it.

810
00:29:51,966 –> 00:29:54,200
And now that I’m familiar with it,

811
00:29:54,200 –> 00:29:57,100
I understand it and I understand there’s a process.

812
00:29:57,300 –> 00:30:00,266
If I follow that process, I’ll be more successful.

813
00:30:00,266 –> 00:30:03,800
I’ll be successful more often than not.

814
00:30:03,800 –> 00:30:05,166
So it’s almost like not jumping

815
00:30:05,166 –> 00:30:07,100
to the extreme conclusion or the extreme

816
00:30:07,100 –> 00:30:09,966
scenario of what might happen when I do this

817
00:30:10,333 –> 00:30:12,900
and just kind of focusing on like the next step

818
00:30:12,900 –> 00:30:13,733
and then the next step,

819
00:30:13,733 –> 00:30:14,800
and then investing yourself

820
00:30:14,800 –> 00:30:16,766
in that process, giving yourself a chance,

821
00:30:16,766 –> 00:30:18,300
telling yourself, you know what,

822
00:30:18,300 –> 00:30:20,100
we can always pivot, we can always move,

823
00:30:20,100 –> 00:30:21,600
we can always countermove.

824
00:30:21,600 –> 00:30:23,566
It’s not the end of the story, right?

825
00:30:23,566 –> 00:30:26,100
Not staying at that freeze frame moment

826
00:30:26,100 –> 00:30:27,033
in the distant future

827
00:30:27,033 –> 00:30:29,200
of all the catastrophic things that may happen.

828
00:30:29,400 –> 00:30:29,700
Yes.

829
00:30:29,700 –> 00:30:30,300
And again,

830
00:30:30,300 –> 00:30:33,000
just going back down to the practicality of the next step,

831
00:30:33,166 –> 00:30:35,700
sounds like that’s the process that they’ve gone through.

832
00:30:35,833 –> 00:30:38,566
We sort of have these vague ideas

833
00:30:38,833 –> 00:30:40,266
of what we’re worried about.

834
00:30:40,266 –> 00:30:42,700
We have these fears, but we don’t actually understand them.

835
00:30:43,166 –> 00:30:46,733
And so when you explore them or you experience them,

836
00:30:47,333 –> 00:30:49,100
you do have that familiarity.

837
00:30:49,100 –> 00:30:50,466
And so

838
00:30:50,566 –> 00:30:52,833
it’s, you know, the Stoics talk about how what’s

839
00:30:52,833 –> 00:30:57,766
what’s foreseen lands less heavily than what is unforeseen.

840
00:30:58,100 –> 00:31:00,500
So like on a book, it could fail.

841
00:31:00,500 –> 00:31:02,666
It could be not just a failure,

842
00:31:02,666 –> 00:31:05,133
it could be an embarrassing failure.

843
00:31:05,400 –> 00:31:07,333
So what? You know what I mean.

844
00:31:07,333 –> 00:31:12,366
I’ve now explored that, thought about it, touched it enough

845
00:31:12,800 –> 00:31:13,200
that,

846
00:31:14,466 –> 00:31:16,333
again, there’s worse things that could happen.

847
00:31:16,333 –> 00:31:16,600
Right?

848
00:31:16,600 –> 00:31:18,866
And so I think when you instead of

849
00:31:19,700 –> 00:31:22,300
like, Oh, I don’t want to talk about that, that’s scary.

850
00:31:22,300 –> 00:31:24,966
Or like, I don’t want to I don’t want to

851
00:31:24,966 –> 00:31:27,733
I don’t want it to be a bad omen or bad luck or whatever.

852
00:31:27,933 –> 00:31:32,233
You almost make it scarier because it’s undefined, right?

853
00:31:32,700 –> 00:31:34,100
So focusing on the way.

854
00:31:34,100 –> 00:31:36,300
Okay. And the obstacle is the way.

855
00:31:36,300 –> 00:31:39,000
Fantastic book again, but I highly recommend that anybody

856
00:31:39,700 –> 00:31:41,400
build on this great insight

857
00:31:41,400 –> 00:31:43,133
by the Stoic Emperor Marcus Aurelius.

858
00:31:43,133 –> 00:31:44,933
When he writes, the mind adapts

859
00:31:44,933 –> 00:31:46,733
and converts to its own purposes.

860
00:31:46,733 –> 00:31:48,600
The obstacle to our acting,

861
00:31:48,600 –> 00:31:51,400
the impediment to action, advances action.

862
00:31:51,633 –> 00:31:53,666
What stands in the way becomes the way.

863
00:31:54,200 –> 00:31:56,400
And it’s a piece of wisdom that I find that’s aged

864
00:31:56,400 –> 00:31:58,433
very well in this crazy 21st century

865
00:31:58,433 –> 00:32:00,133
where life is changing so fast

866
00:32:00,133 –> 00:32:02,833
and the pandemic and technology and constant change.

867
00:32:02,933 –> 00:32:04,400
People are facing obstacles

868
00:32:04,400 –> 00:32:06,666
that no one ever predicted that they might face.

869
00:32:07,500 –> 00:32:10,433
But a lot of people I speak to today question

870
00:32:10,433 –> 00:32:14,000
how much agency they really have, little old them

871
00:32:14,333 –> 00:32:16,300
to overcome the obstacles in their lives.

872
00:32:16,300 –> 00:32:16,800
I mean,

873
00:32:16,800 –> 00:32:19,700
what do you do when COVID has wiped out your business

874
00:32:19,700 –> 00:32:22,033
or when you’ve lost a loved one

875
00:32:22,033 –> 00:32:24,300
or you’re struggling with depression or addiction

876
00:32:24,300 –> 00:32:25,066
when you’re not even sure

877
00:32:25,066 –> 00:32:27,200
that your career path even exists anymore?

878
00:32:27,600 –> 00:32:29,400
A lot of them have very compelling stories

879
00:32:29,400 –> 00:32:30,166
when you listen to them

880
00:32:30,166 –> 00:32:32,500
and the adversity they speak of is real.

881
00:32:32,500 –> 00:32:34,733
What would you respond to those who say, okay,

882
00:32:34,733 –> 00:32:37,166
the obstacle is the way is good advice.

883
00:32:37,166 –> 00:32:39,900
If the obstacle is somewhat manageable

884
00:32:40,566 –> 00:32:43,066
or when you have the resources to deal with it.

885
00:32:43,400 –> 00:32:46,500
But when it’s too big or overwhelming, it’s not so simple.

886
00:32:46,500 –> 00:32:48,666
And like the obstacle is the obstacle,

887
00:32:48,666 –> 00:32:53,766
it it’s still it’s almost more true in those extreme cases

888
00:32:53,766 –> 00:32:55,166
than the minor cases, right?

889
00:32:55,166 –> 00:32:57,900
So when we say the obstacle is the way we’re not,

890
00:32:58,166 –> 00:32:58,600
is it

891
00:32:58,600 –> 00:33:00,300
is it also true that flippantly,

892
00:33:00,300 –> 00:33:02,033
like, hey, you can use this for good,

893
00:33:03,033 –> 00:33:05,333
that, hey, maybe there’s a little bit there’s a

894
00:33:05,333 –> 00:33:06,133
we’re going to turn this into

895
00:33:06,133 –> 00:33:07,766
the best thing that ever happened?

896
00:33:07,766 –> 00:33:08,666
Yes, that’s true.

897
00:33:08,666 –> 00:33:10,433
But I’m actually I think the Stoics,

898
00:33:10,433 –> 00:33:12,800
when they’re talking about this idea of the obstacles,

899
00:33:12,800 –> 00:33:13,200
the way

900
00:33:13,533 –> 00:33:14,600
they’re talking

901
00:33:14,600 –> 00:33:17,066
primarily about these major

902
00:33:17,066 –> 00:33:19,466
other things that are outside of our control.

903
00:33:19,466 –> 00:33:22,133
So let’s say your business has been destroyed by COVID.

904
00:33:22,433 –> 00:33:25,333
First off, I’m sorry, That sucks. It’s not your fault.

905
00:33:26,466 –> 00:33:29,233
If I wish that it hadn’t happened to you. Right.

906
00:33:29,933 –> 00:33:31,500
But it did happen to you.

907
00:33:31,500 –> 00:33:34,033
So the obstacle is still the way, right?

908
00:33:34,766 –> 00:33:36,300
Give me another way.

909
00:33:36,300 –> 00:33:38,900
Right. Like you’re going to magically make this happen.

910
00:33:39,600 –> 00:33:41,800
You’re going to blame someone else.

911
00:33:41,800 –> 00:33:42,366
You’re going

912
00:33:42,366 –> 00:33:45,133
to expect someone else to solve it

913
00:33:45,133 –> 00:33:48,100
for, you know, like it’s still there.

914
00:33:48,100 –> 00:33:50,400
And the fact that it’s bigger

915
00:33:50,400 –> 00:33:52,400
and than it’s been is catastrophic

916
00:33:52,633 –> 00:33:53,633
as it was,

917
00:33:53,633 –> 00:33:55,933
almost makes it more of an imperative

918
00:33:56,200 –> 00:33:58,800
that you have to figure out

919
00:33:58,800 –> 00:34:00,300
what you’re going to do with this.

920
00:34:00,300 –> 00:34:02,000
So when the Stoics say, like,

921
00:34:02,000 –> 00:34:03,033
we don’t control what happens,

922
00:34:03,033 –> 00:34:04,900
we control how we respond, right?

923
00:34:04,900 –> 00:34:09,100
Which is basic, but also very brilliant and complex.

924
00:34:09,366 –> 00:34:13,166
So a lot of the world is just outside of our control.

925
00:34:13,166 –> 00:34:14,466
We don’t control the pandemic,

926
00:34:14,466 –> 00:34:15,700
but we control

927
00:34:15,700 –> 00:34:20,766
what we learn from and change because of the pandemic.

928
00:34:20,766 –> 00:34:21,533
So, you know,

929
00:34:21,533 –> 00:34:22,500
you hear people go, Oh, I can’t

930
00:34:22,500 –> 00:34:25,766
wait for things to go back to normal.

931
00:34:25,766 –> 00:34:27,766
Normal is what caused this, right?

932
00:34:27,766 –> 00:34:30,666
So, you know, you lose someone,

933
00:34:30,666 –> 00:34:32,300
you lose someone you love in a pandemic

934
00:34:32,300 –> 00:34:35,300
or in an accident or something. Again, tragic, unfortunate.

935
00:34:35,300 –> 00:34:36,433
You wouldn’t have chosen it.

936
00:34:37,733 –> 00:34:40,933
But are you going to make that event more tragic

937
00:34:41,300 –> 00:34:45,966
by becoming paralyzed by it, by declining to

938
00:34:46,600 –> 00:34:48,666
to remember them fondly?

939
00:34:48,666 –> 00:34:50,833
Because are you going to torture yourself

940
00:34:51,200 –> 00:34:52,600
because something sad happened?

941
00:34:52,600 –> 00:34:53,333
Like, no,

942
00:34:53,333 –> 00:34:55,900
you have to figure out how to move on

943
00:34:55,900 –> 00:34:59,133
and move forward and integrate the memory

944
00:34:59,366 –> 00:35:01,433
and the good things about that relationship

945
00:35:01,433 –> 00:35:02,800
into your life going forward.

946
00:35:02,800 –> 00:35:05,033
So what the Stoics are saying

947
00:35:05,033 –> 00:35:05,566
is not that

948
00:35:05,566 –> 00:35:06,900
everything bad

949
00:35:06,900 –> 00:35:09,266
is good if you just flip it upside down, that

950
00:35:09,300 –> 00:35:12,966
that would be very insensitive and and naive.

951
00:35:13,300 –> 00:35:16,333
What the Stoics are saying is that everything that happens

952
00:35:16,633 –> 00:35:18,966
is an opportunity to practice

953
00:35:19,200 –> 00:35:22,133
one of the stoic virtues, right?

954
00:35:22,133 –> 00:35:24,366
Everything is an opportunity

955
00:35:24,366 –> 00:35:26,400
to prove yourself,

956
00:35:26,666 –> 00:35:28,500
to prove what you believe in,

957
00:35:28,500 –> 00:35:30,600
to prove what you’re capable of.

958
00:35:30,600 –> 00:35:34,166
That’s what that idea means. Hmm.

959
00:35:34,733 –> 00:35:35,300
That’s great.

960
00:35:35,300 –> 00:35:36,466
So that’s always and that’s

961
00:35:36,466 –> 00:35:37,800
what I’ve always believed, is that, you know,

962
00:35:37,800 –> 00:35:40,966
it’s almost like with those biggest obstacles that,

963
00:35:41,266 –> 00:35:42,600
you know, there’s this notion that we read up

964
00:35:42,600 –> 00:35:44,366
sometimes in psychology, it’s not your fault,

965
00:35:44,366 –> 00:35:45,500
but it’s your responsibility.

966
00:35:45,500 –> 00:35:47,700
How you respond to whatever happens to you.

967
00:35:47,733 –> 00:35:48,966
It’s not your fault, right?

968
00:35:48,966 –> 00:35:49,966
I mean, you know,

969
00:35:49,966 –> 00:35:51,633
if your business, even if it was represent

970
00:35:51,633 –> 00:35:55,366
a lot of businesses that we see never was right right now.

971
00:35:55,433 –> 00:35:56,666
And it’s like a lot of businesses

972
00:35:56,666 –> 00:35:59,000
that were like even if it was your fault. Right.

973
00:35:59,066 –> 00:36:00,000
It’s still happened.

974
00:36:00,000 –> 00:36:02,300
So what what what are you going to do? You know, happened?

975
00:36:02,466 –> 00:36:04,600
Yeah, right.

976
00:36:04,600 –> 00:36:05,666
So you start with the facts.

977
00:36:05,666 –> 00:36:07,666
You start with the fact of this is going on

978
00:36:07,666 –> 00:36:08,700
whether you like it or not,

979
00:36:08,700 –> 00:36:11,133
whether you predicted that it would happen or not.

980
00:36:11,133 –> 00:36:12,366
And a lot of people that go through

981
00:36:12,366 –> 00:36:13,966
a lot of ups and downs during COVID, it’s

982
00:36:13,966 –> 00:36:15,333
like in a sense,

983
00:36:15,333 –> 00:36:17,500
their business was exposed to that risk

984
00:36:17,500 –> 00:36:19,400
or that fragility, Right?

985
00:36:19,400 –> 00:36:23,033
COVID highlighted it, unfortunately ruthlessly.

986
00:36:23,033 –> 00:36:24,433
And so now, in a sense, it’s

987
00:36:24,433 –> 00:36:25,066
an opportunity

988
00:36:25,066 –> 00:36:26,900
to build something that perhaps

989
00:36:26,900 –> 00:36:30,233
is not as fragile to these kinds of changes.

990
00:36:30,233 –> 00:36:33,666
Easy to say, but at the same time, these are the facts.

991
00:36:33,666 –> 00:36:35,233
What are you going to do about it? Right.

992
00:36:35,233 –> 00:36:37,400
Or to change direction in your life?

993
00:36:37,766 –> 00:36:39,333
It’s a chance to rebuild.

994
00:36:39,333 –> 00:36:40,633
It’s a chance to grow.

995
00:36:40,633 –> 00:36:42,466
It’s a chance to exit.

996
00:36:42,466 –> 00:36:44,433
Something that you should have needed.

997
00:36:44,433 –> 00:36:46,033
You should have already exited. Right.

998
00:36:46,033 –> 00:36:48,466
That like there’s an infinite amount of ways

999
00:36:48,466 –> 00:36:49,566
you can look at it.

1000
00:36:49,566 –> 00:36:51,500
But the point is it happened

1001
00:36:51,500 –> 00:36:54,366
and whether it was your fault or not,

1002
00:36:54,366 –> 00:36:55,533
whether you could have done it

1003
00:36:55,533 –> 00:36:59,500
differently or not is now irrelevant because it did happen.

1004
00:36:59,866 –> 00:37:01,466
So now what?

1005
00:37:01,466 –> 00:37:02,033
Right.

1006
00:37:02,033 –> 00:37:03,500
And I was thinking about this the other day.

1007
00:37:03,500 –> 00:37:05,433
It’s sort of like I think

1008
00:37:05,433 –> 00:37:07,466
the really superficial level is the start.

1009
00:37:07,466 –> 00:37:09,566
You’d be like, here, this bad thing happened to me.

1010
00:37:10,066 –> 00:37:13,200
And then the Stoics would be like, So, so what?

1011
00:37:13,700 –> 00:37:16,633
You’re like, So what are you going to do about it?

1012
00:37:16,866 –> 00:37:17,700
Right like that.

1013
00:37:17,700 –> 00:37:20,300
That’s where that’s what we’re trying to figure out.

1014
00:37:20,300 –> 00:37:22,366
What am I going to about this?

1015
00:37:23,200 –> 00:37:25,266
It’s almost really like like stressing

1016
00:37:25,266 –> 00:37:27,233
and emphasizing the agency piece of this.

1017
00:37:27,233 –> 00:37:28,500
So between

1018
00:37:28,500 –> 00:37:30,133
stimulus and response,

1019
00:37:30,133 –> 00:37:33,166
there’s an opportunity to make a choice

1020
00:37:33,900 –> 00:37:35,833
and sort of expand in that space.

1021
00:37:37,266 –> 00:37:38,200
Exactly.

1022
00:37:38,200 –> 00:37:39,100
That’s great.

1023
00:37:39,633 –> 00:37:43,800
So in a lot of ways, I also find that stoicism can be

1024
00:37:44,600 –> 00:37:45,366
one of,

1025
00:37:45,366 –> 00:37:46,666
if not the perfect antidote

1026
00:37:46,666 –> 00:37:47,766
to developing inner peace

1027
00:37:47,766 –> 00:37:49,366
at a time when the culture tells us

1028
00:37:49,366 –> 00:37:51,000
it’s always about chasing more, right?

1029
00:37:51,000 –> 00:37:54,600
More money, more success, more attention, more fame,

1030
00:37:55,000 –> 00:37:57,200
we get almost emotionally addicted to

1031
00:37:57,200 –> 00:37:59,933
and dependent on external validation and rewards.

1032
00:38:00,333 –> 00:38:02,500
You’ve written quite a bit about the life of Seneca,

1033
00:38:02,566 –> 00:38:04,133
who lived in very tumultuous times,

1034
00:38:04,133 –> 00:38:05,766
and he responded to those

1035
00:38:05,766 –> 00:38:07,800
by striving to develop inner peace, apathy,

1036
00:38:08,000 –> 00:38:09,000
he calls it,

1037
00:38:09,000 –> 00:38:09,300
so that

1038
00:38:09,300 –> 00:38:11,866
even if the world is going crazy and is at war

1039
00:38:11,866 –> 00:38:13,133
and whatever is going on on the outside,

1040
00:38:13,133 –> 00:38:16,433
you can still be at peace on the inside and thrive even.

1041
00:38:16,433 –> 00:38:17,766
And on this point you write,

1042
00:38:17,766 –> 00:38:19,866
you have this great line and stillness is the key

1043
00:38:20,366 –> 00:38:21,166
where you write.

1044
00:38:21,166 –> 00:38:23,200
It’s ironic that stillness is rare

1045
00:38:23,200 –> 00:38:25,233
and fleeting in our busy lives

1046
00:38:25,233 –> 00:38:28,366
because the world creates an inexhaustible supply of it.

1047
00:38:28,733 –> 00:38:30,966
It’s just that nobody’s looking.

1048
00:38:30,966 –> 00:38:33,033
So this sounds like a really attractive

1049
00:38:33,033 –> 00:38:34,500
idea for a lot of us today.

1050
00:38:35,666 –> 00:38:37,700
How do we develop this in motion?

1051
00:38:37,700 –> 00:38:40,400
So while juggling a million things, working,

1052
00:38:40,566 –> 00:38:42,600
paying the bills, changing jobs,

1053
00:38:42,600 –> 00:38:44,633
managing friendships, some of us raising kids,

1054
00:38:45,000 –> 00:38:47,266
you have a lot of great historical examples on this,

1055
00:38:47,566 –> 00:38:48,300
but how do you manage

1056
00:38:48,300 –> 00:38:50,433
to consistently find and cultivate

1057
00:38:50,433 –> 00:38:53,100
this inner peace and stillness in these crazy times?

1058
00:38:53,433 –> 00:38:53,600
Well,

1059
00:38:53,600 –> 00:38:54,966
one of the things that’s been interesting

1060
00:38:54,966 –> 00:38:56,266
about the pandemic,

1061
00:38:56,266 –> 00:38:57,466
if we want to talk about the idea

1062
00:38:57,466 –> 00:38:59,000
of the obstacle in the ways,

1063
00:38:59,000 –> 00:38:59,366
is that

1064
00:38:59,366 –> 00:38:59,666
I think

1065
00:38:59,666 –> 00:39:01,866
it really challenged a lot of assumptions

1066
00:39:01,866 –> 00:39:02,733
that we had about

1067
00:39:02,733 –> 00:39:05,133
how our lives had to be set up,

1068
00:39:05,133 –> 00:39:08,133
like, Oh, I have to commute into the office every day.

1069
00:39:08,333 –> 00:39:10,333
Oh, I have to travel a lot for work,

1070
00:39:10,600 –> 00:39:13,166
Oh, I have to do a lot of in-person meetings

1071
00:39:13,466 –> 00:39:16,133
or I have to make X amount of dollars

1072
00:39:16,366 –> 00:39:18,666
or I have to do this, that or the other.

1073
00:39:19,066 –> 00:39:21,300
And then Cogan came along and said, No, you don’t,

1074
00:39:21,300 –> 00:39:23,466
and in fact, you can’t. Right?

1075
00:39:23,466 –> 00:39:26,100
And then we had to figure out what is life look like

1076
00:39:26,600 –> 00:39:28,700
with a whole bunch of things off, the table.

1077
00:39:29,400 –> 00:39:30,433
And now for me,

1078
00:39:30,433 –> 00:39:33,100
I found that actually being forced

1079
00:39:33,100 –> 00:39:34,700
to stop a lot of things helped me

1080
00:39:34,700 –> 00:39:38,366
be better at what I actually should have been doing and.

1081
00:39:38,366 –> 00:39:40,466
I actually like doing.

1082
00:39:40,466 –> 00:39:42,566
So I kind of see it as this

1083
00:39:42,566 –> 00:39:44,800
forced lifestyle experiment, right?

1084
00:39:44,800 –> 00:39:47,100
What is a lot less look like?

1085
00:39:47,100 –> 00:39:48,600
What does it look like when nobody’s

1086
00:39:48,600 –> 00:39:51,433
doing anything all at the same time? And so

1087
00:39:52,866 –> 00:39:56,033
when we think about stillness, we often think like, Oh,

1088
00:39:56,433 –> 00:39:57,900
I want to go on a ten day

1089
00:39:57,900 –> 00:40:00,300
silent meditation retreat or,

1090
00:40:00,533 –> 00:40:03,166
Oh, I’m going to go on a one month vacation

1091
00:40:03,433 –> 00:40:04,800
or I’m going to quit my job.

1092
00:40:04,800 –> 00:40:05,933
And then

1093
00:40:05,933 –> 00:40:08,233
when it’s some form of retirement,

1094
00:40:08,233 –> 00:40:10,933
finally have sort of peace and quiet.

1095
00:40:10,933 –> 00:40:13,300
And the reality is you can have those things right now.

1096
00:40:13,633 –> 00:40:14,033
Right?

1097
00:40:14,033 –> 00:40:15,733
And you should you need them right now

1098
00:40:15,733 –> 00:40:19,200
actually, to do what it is that you do.

1099
00:40:19,200 –> 00:40:21,733
And so I think for me, it’s just been interesting to

1100
00:40:21,833 –> 00:40:23,200
to sort of

1101
00:40:23,200 –> 00:40:26,400
have have having a sense to have redesigned my life

1102
00:40:26,400 –> 00:40:28,666
from the ground up a year and a half ago

1103
00:40:29,033 –> 00:40:30,600
and find that

1104
00:40:30,600 –> 00:40:33,100
all of a sudden the things that I can’t do that

1105
00:40:33,100 –> 00:40:35,366
I thought I had to do I actually don’t want to do

1106
00:40:35,366 –> 00:40:37,200
and I don’t need to do.

1107
00:40:37,200 –> 00:40:40,066
And and then I do the things that I do need to do

1108
00:40:40,066 –> 00:40:42,300
and that I do want to do better

1109
00:40:42,300 –> 00:40:45,100
when I am only focusing on that.

1110
00:40:45,100 –> 00:40:49,700
So to me, stillness is not like the absence of activity.

1111
00:40:50,466 –> 00:40:52,700
It can be very active.

1112
00:40:52,700 –> 00:40:56,266
It’s just the absence of inessential activity,

1113
00:40:56,700 –> 00:40:59,200
frivolous activity, frantic activity.

1114
00:40:59,566 –> 00:41:02,166
So then the things you are doing are coming.

1115
00:41:02,833 –> 00:41:03,866
You’re coming at them

1116
00:41:03,866 –> 00:41:08,133
from a place of stillness and self-control.

1117
00:41:08,133 –> 00:41:09,666
That’s a fantastic distinction.

1118
00:41:09,666 –> 00:41:12,600
And you had this great post on Daily Stoic,

1119
00:41:13,433 –> 00:41:14,266
a little conversation

1120
00:41:14,266 –> 00:41:16,433
between Joseph Heller and Kurt Vonnegut,

1121
00:41:16,433 –> 00:41:18,100
where they were at a party together

1122
00:41:18,100 –> 00:41:19,033
hosted by a billionaire.

1123
00:41:19,033 –> 00:41:20,700
And Vonnegut tells Heller,

1124
00:41:20,700 –> 00:41:22,500
this billionaire has made more this week

1125
00:41:22,500 –> 00:41:23,966
than your book ever will.

1126
00:41:23,966 –> 00:41:25,400
And Heller responds, Yes,

1127
00:41:25,400 –> 00:41:28,666
but I have something that he doesn’t, and that’s enough.

1128
00:41:29,400 –> 00:41:33,166
And it’s a super powerful message because enough isn’t

1129
00:41:33,433 –> 00:41:34,900
enough of what right enough

1130
00:41:34,900 –> 00:41:38,033
frantic activity, enough friends, followers, enough.

1131
00:41:39,000 –> 00:41:39,833
All of this stuff.

1132
00:41:39,833 –> 00:41:41,733
That doesn’t really matter.

1133
00:41:41,733 –> 00:41:42,933
It’s a moving target, right?

1134
00:41:42,933 –> 00:41:47,133
If we stay unfocused and undirected, in a sense,

1135
00:41:47,200 –> 00:41:48,066
there’s never enough.

1136
00:41:48,066 –> 00:41:50,300
I mean, we just keep chasing one pleasure after the other.

1137
00:41:50,966 –> 00:41:53,566
So I think that distinction that you just brought between,

1138
00:41:53,900 –> 00:41:54,766
you know, essential

1139
00:41:54,766 –> 00:41:57,833
really core important activity and frantic activity

1140
00:41:58,300 –> 00:42:00,133
is probably a great clue.

1141
00:42:00,133 –> 00:42:01,333
But in your life,

1142
00:42:01,333 –> 00:42:01,600
how do you

1143
00:42:01,600 –> 00:42:04,266
how do you get to that point of enough of satiation

1144
00:42:04,700 –> 00:42:07,266
but yet still have this tremendous drive

1145
00:42:07,266 –> 00:42:09,000
to keep going and keep doing

1146
00:42:09,000 –> 00:42:10,533
great work over and over again?

1147
00:42:10,533 –> 00:42:11,666
Well, you mentioned Seneca,

1148
00:42:11,666 –> 00:42:12,266
and I think that’s

1149
00:42:12,266 –> 00:42:14,000
one of the tragedies of Seneca’s

1150
00:42:14,000 –> 00:42:17,333
life, is that he was so busy, so ambitious

1151
00:42:17,600 –> 00:42:18,966
that it sort of ends up taking him.

1152
00:42:18,966 –> 00:42:20,666
It takes him to a very illustrious place,

1153
00:42:20,666 –> 00:42:22,666
but ultimately a very dark place.

1154
00:42:22,666 –> 00:42:25,633
And I guess for me, it goes back to where we started,

1155
00:42:25,633 –> 00:42:29,033
which is like, I’m not frantic or busy.

1156
00:42:29,300 –> 00:42:32,666
I like doing this one thing and I do that thing

1157
00:42:32,866 –> 00:42:35,100
steadily day in and day out.

1158
00:42:35,100 –> 00:42:39,533
And the byproduct of that is productivity.

1159
00:42:40,033 –> 00:42:42,700
So or publishable output, if you will.

1160
00:42:43,066 –> 00:42:46,133
So again, I’m not like I have to do a book a year.

1161
00:42:46,333 –> 00:42:48,900
I’m not like I have to write a certain number of books.

1162
00:42:48,900 –> 00:42:50,400
They all have to be best.

1163
00:42:50,400 –> 00:42:53,566
I go, What do I need to do today?

1164
00:42:53,566 –> 00:42:55,200
What’s my job today?

1165
00:42:55,200 –> 00:42:56,400
And I do that

1166
00:42:56,400 –> 00:42:59,533
and I just stack enough of those days on top of each other

1167
00:42:59,933 –> 00:43:01,800
and you get the output

1168
00:43:03,266 –> 00:43:05,833
that that people will think is impressive.

1169
00:43:07,300 –> 00:43:10,533
But but again, the output is not the goal.

1170
00:43:10,733 –> 00:43:14,300
The process is the goal. The daily routine is the goal.

1171
00:43:14,800 –> 00:43:16,266
The making, the small,

1172
00:43:16,266 –> 00:43:18,733
the small daily contribution is the goal.

1173
00:43:18,933 –> 00:43:21,300
The rest is extra.

1174
00:43:21,900 –> 00:43:23,500
It’s so interesting how there’s

1175
00:43:23,500 –> 00:43:25,133
almost like these crisscrossing parts

1176
00:43:25,133 –> 00:43:26,333
of like the way you talk.

1177
00:43:26,333 –> 00:43:27,900
When we look at your achievements,

1178
00:43:27,900 –> 00:43:31,000
it almost looks like crazy frantic activity.

1179
00:43:31,000 –> 00:43:32,066
It’s like all of these

1180
00:43:32,066 –> 00:43:34,533
these these things that you stack up right at your age.

1181
00:43:34,900 –> 00:43:36,166
And then there’s people also

1182
00:43:36,166 –> 00:43:38,800
that are like super busy, like all day,

1183
00:43:38,833 –> 00:43:40,666
like 15 hours a day, running around, running around.

1184
00:43:40,666 –> 00:43:42,900
And then you look at what they’re actually and it’s like,

1185
00:43:43,533 –> 00:43:44,900
not very much, right?

1186
00:43:44,900 –> 00:43:46,366
It’s almost like

1187
00:43:46,366 –> 00:43:47,500
the impression we get in

1188
00:43:47,500 –> 00:43:48,900
the immediate moment is almost like

1189
00:43:48,900 –> 00:43:50,933
the opposite of what we’re actually doing.

1190
00:43:50,933 –> 00:43:52,933
When you spread it out over time.

1191
00:43:52,933 –> 00:43:54,200
Well, I think

1192
00:43:54,200 –> 00:43:56,200
one of the things I talk about when I talk to sports

1193
00:43:56,200 –> 00:43:57,866
teams is as I sort of say, well,

1194
00:43:57,866 –> 00:43:59,866
what are you going to say no to this year?

1195
00:44:00,166 –> 00:44:01,500
Because everything that we say yes

1196
00:44:01,500 –> 00:44:03,800
to means saying no to something else

1197
00:44:03,800 –> 00:44:04,666
and everything we say

1198
00:44:04,666 –> 00:44:07,166
no to means the opportunity to say yes to something else.

1199
00:44:07,200 –> 00:44:10,233
So a big part of it is like, what do you say no to?

1200
00:44:10,466 –> 00:44:12,900
And I think that that has been a helpful lesson to me.

1201
00:44:12,900 –> 00:44:15,000
It’s like, Oh, there’s a lot more things

1202
00:44:15,000 –> 00:44:17,400
that when they suddenly became illegal

1203
00:44:17,400 –> 00:44:19,833
or suddenly became impossible,

1204
00:44:19,833 –> 00:44:22,300
my productivity and my satisfaction,

1205
00:44:22,300 –> 00:44:24,600
both at home and at work, went up.

1206
00:44:24,600 –> 00:44:28,533
And so as the world does return to some semblance of normal

1207
00:44:28,533 –> 00:44:31,333
where these things are possible again, now,

1208
00:44:31,333 –> 00:44:34,000
I’m going to have to be more active in actively

1209
00:44:34,000 –> 00:44:35,866
saying no to them, as opposed to them

1210
00:44:35,866 –> 00:44:39,100
just sort of being not up for discussion.

1211
00:44:39,533 –> 00:44:41,966
So so that was one of the blessings of the pandemic, right?

1212
00:44:41,966 –> 00:44:44,166
It stopped all this extraneous activity

1213
00:44:44,466 –> 00:44:47,200
and forced people to stay focused, stay in their zone.

1214
00:44:47,900 –> 00:44:49,666
You know, what are the relationships that really matter,

1215
00:44:49,666 –> 00:44:51,400
what the things that really matter in my life?

1216
00:44:51,400 –> 00:44:52,833
I find that that’s really been

1217
00:44:52,833 –> 00:44:53,633
one of the

1218
00:44:53,633 –> 00:44:57,466
the great in a sense, of hidden blessings of the pandemic.

1219
00:44:57,966 –> 00:45:00,700
And it does when we talk about the obstacle being the way

1220
00:45:00,933 –> 00:45:02,200
it’s not that oh,

1221
00:45:02,200 –> 00:45:04,533
that made the pandemic worth it,

1222
00:45:04,533 –> 00:45:07,733
but it was the good you managed to derive

1223
00:45:07,733 –> 00:45:09,100
from the pandemic right?

1224
00:45:09,100 –> 00:45:11,033
Because that’s all we can focus, right?

1225
00:45:12,033 –> 00:45:13,333
I’m not saying that,

1226
00:45:13,333 –> 00:45:15,333
you know, 700,000

1227
00:45:15,333 –> 00:45:17,466
American deaths was worth me

1228
00:45:17,666 –> 00:45:20,666
being slightly more productive as a writer

1229
00:45:20,800 –> 00:45:22,933
and happier at home. That would be insane.

1230
00:45:23,133 –> 00:45:24,500
What I’m saying is

1231
00:45:24,500 –> 00:45:29,066
that the only thing I was able to focus on was that.

1232
00:45:29,066 –> 00:45:31,833
And so that’s what I’ve managed to derive from it.

1233
00:45:32,966 –> 00:45:34,800
Hmm. That’s great.

1234
00:45:34,800 –> 00:45:36,500
If there’s one maybe not criticism,

1235
00:45:36,500 –> 00:45:37,733
but something a lot of people say

1236
00:45:37,733 –> 00:45:39,733
is missing from Stoicism, It’s

1237
00:45:39,733 –> 00:45:42,900
that it’s too serious, it’s too internally focused,

1238
00:45:43,233 –> 00:45:44,700
and that it doesn’t emphasize

1239
00:45:44,700 –> 00:45:47,466
positive emotions like empathy, love, joy,

1240
00:45:47,800 –> 00:45:49,100
or positive relationships.

1241
00:45:49,100 –> 00:45:51,600
And at least not not as much as other philosophies do.

1242
00:45:52,033 –> 00:45:54,366
Even in ancient Greece, people used to call the Stoics

1243
00:45:54,366 –> 00:45:56,100
the men of stone.

1244
00:45:56,100 –> 00:45:59,066
I know your book on Courage is the first of four

1245
00:45:59,066 –> 00:46:01,200
that you’re writing on the four great stoic virtues

1246
00:46:01,400 –> 00:46:03,733
courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom.

1247
00:46:04,433 –> 00:46:06,600
What I found really interesting is that these virtues

1248
00:46:06,900 –> 00:46:09,066
intersect perfectly with

1249
00:46:09,066 –> 00:46:10,900
the six great virtues that Marty Seligman,

1250
00:46:10,900 –> 00:46:12,900
the father of positive psychology, talks about.

1251
00:46:12,900 –> 00:46:15,033
So the four virtues are the same.

1252
00:46:15,033 –> 00:46:16,166
But then he adds two more.

1253
00:46:16,166 –> 00:46:19,633
He adds empathy or love, and then beauty or transcendence.

1254
00:46:20,133 –> 00:46:22,666
And it’s kind of similar to the thought that I read

1255
00:46:22,666 –> 00:46:24,266
recently that Jonathan Haidt had

1256
00:46:24,266 –> 00:46:25,866
when he wrote the Happiness hypothesis.

1257
00:46:25,866 –> 00:46:28,200
He says that when he started writing the book,

1258
00:46:28,200 –> 00:46:31,500
he like the Stoics, that happiness comes from within.

1259
00:46:32,100 –> 00:46:34,266
But by the time he’d finished writing the book,

1260
00:46:34,266 –> 00:46:36,433
he changed his mind to happiness

1261
00:46:36,433 –> 00:46:39,300
comes from between from getting the right relationships

1262
00:46:39,866 –> 00:46:41,966
and living for something greater than yourself.

1263
00:46:42,433 –> 00:46:43,666
I know you’re a family man.

1264
00:46:43,666 –> 00:46:46,200
I know that you give advice that helps millions of people.

1265
00:46:46,700 –> 00:46:48,200
What’s your view?

1266
00:46:48,200 –> 00:46:50,366
The importance of empathy, love,

1267
00:46:50,366 –> 00:46:51,600
positive relationships

1268
00:46:51,600 –> 00:46:53,666
and their role in living the good life.

1269
00:46:53,666 –> 00:46:56,400
So I would say that those two things you said about sort of

1270
00:46:57,466 –> 00:46:59,233
beauty and transcendence and

1271
00:46:59,233 –> 00:47:00,600
then about

1272
00:47:00,700 –> 00:47:03,233
relationships and empathy and love,

1273
00:47:03,500 –> 00:47:05,966
I would just I would say they’re very important.

1274
00:47:06,133 –> 00:47:06,800
I would agree

1275
00:47:06,800 –> 00:47:08,900
they’re not talked about enough instances,

1276
00:47:09,300 –> 00:47:11,133
but I would say that they clearly fall

1277
00:47:11,133 –> 00:47:13,200
under the buckets of justice and wisdom.

1278
00:47:13,766 –> 00:47:17,166
Wisdom is not simply the study of books,

1279
00:47:17,400 –> 00:47:20,900
but also the study of nature, the understanding of nature,

1280
00:47:21,166 –> 00:47:21,900
the understanding

1281
00:47:21,900 –> 00:47:25,833
that some things are ineffable and cannot be articulated,

1282
00:47:25,833 –> 00:47:28,433
but can only be experience, right?

1283
00:47:28,433 –> 00:47:31,433
So to me, that all falls into the bucket of of wisdom.

1284
00:47:31,433 –> 00:47:33,433
And I think the Stoics actually talk about beauty

1285
00:47:33,433 –> 00:47:34,766
quite a great deal,

1286
00:47:34,766 –> 00:47:38,100
not sort of superficial beauty of like a woman’s face,

1287
00:47:38,100 –> 00:47:39,433
but the beauty of,

1288
00:47:39,433 –> 00:47:43,066
you know, a sunset or the way doves

1289
00:47:43,066 –> 00:47:44,700
fly together or whatever

1290
00:47:45,733 –> 00:47:47,900
as far as love and empathy, to me, this

1291
00:47:47,900 –> 00:47:48,766
this fits

1292
00:47:48,766 –> 00:47:52,433
very clearly under justice, not justice in the legal sense,

1293
00:47:52,766 –> 00:47:56,233
but justice in the sense of like, what are our obligations?

1294
00:47:56,433 –> 00:47:58,933
What are what produces meaning?

1295
00:48:00,000 –> 00:48:02,666
You know, what is our true purpose on this planet?

1296
00:48:02,900 –> 00:48:04,533
It’s other people, right?

1297
00:48:04,533 –> 00:48:07,533
It’s the it’s the good we’re able to do for

1298
00:48:07,533 –> 00:48:09,000
and through other people.

1299
00:48:09,000 –> 00:48:11,666
So I agree they’re very important

1300
00:48:11,666 –> 00:48:14,366
and they’re they’re certainly major priorities in my life.

1301
00:48:14,700 –> 00:48:17,000
You know, as I first started writing about Stoicism,

1302
00:48:17,000 –> 00:48:19,966
I was more interested in courage and self-discipline,

1303
00:48:19,966 –> 00:48:22,700
the sort of independent

1304
00:48:23,866 –> 00:48:26,633
like sort of of the world virtues.

1305
00:48:26,633 –> 00:48:29,200
But I think as you study it and you learn more about it,

1306
00:48:30,300 –> 00:48:32,566
you eventually these other doors open

1307
00:48:32,566 –> 00:48:33,866
and you come to understand them

1308
00:48:33,866 –> 00:48:36,766
as being equally important and fulfilling.

1309
00:48:36,766 –> 00:48:38,800
Amazing. Yeah, that’s often the case, right?

1310
00:48:38,866 –> 00:48:40,533
You’ve got the sort of the general

1311
00:48:40,533 –> 00:48:42,000
understanding of a certain school of thought,

1312
00:48:42,000 –> 00:48:43,466
and then when you get deeper into the ideas,

1313
00:48:43,466 –> 00:48:43,866
you find that

1314
00:48:43,866 –> 00:48:46,300
those thinkers have actually talked about,

1315
00:48:46,300 –> 00:48:48,166
you know, a lot of the things that that, you know,

1316
00:48:48,166 –> 00:48:49,300
might not seem obvious

1317
00:48:49,300 –> 00:48:51,400
when you think of stoicism, you think of this really like

1318
00:48:51,400 –> 00:48:53,700
stern self-control, self-discipline.

1319
00:48:54,133 –> 00:48:55,366
But then you get a little bit deeper

1320
00:48:55,366 –> 00:48:56,733
into the into the writings,

1321
00:48:56,733 –> 00:48:58,266
and you realize that they do talk about

1322
00:48:58,266 –> 00:48:59,800
about a lot of these other themes.

1323
00:48:59,800 –> 00:49:00,700
And when you really

1324
00:49:00,700 –> 00:49:01,200
I know that you

1325
00:49:01,200 –> 00:49:01,833
the Stoics,

1326
00:49:01,833 –> 00:49:04,000
whereas people they were husbands

1327
00:49:04,000 –> 00:49:05,000
and fathers

1328
00:49:05,000 –> 00:49:07,000
and sons and daughters,

1329
00:49:07,000 –> 00:49:10,233
they held public office, they fought for causes.

1330
00:49:10,233 –> 00:49:11,833
They wrote poetry.

1331
00:49:11,833 –> 00:49:14,766
You know, they, they, they tended gardens.

1332
00:49:15,033 –> 00:49:18,633
So the idea that these were these, like, unfeeling beasts

1333
00:49:18,966 –> 00:49:21,166
disconnected from the world,

1334
00:49:21,166 –> 00:49:23,800
I mean, it’s just not borne out by the facts.

1335
00:49:23,800 –> 00:49:25,966
And, you know, they weren’t monks, right?

1336
00:49:25,966 –> 00:49:27,600
They didn’t live in monasteries.

1337
00:49:27,600 –> 00:49:28,200
They were

1338
00:49:28,200 –> 00:49:30,066
of all the philosophical school

1339
00:49:30,066 –> 00:49:33,000
is the most like of this earth,

1340
00:49:33,300 –> 00:49:37,233
like the most connected and involved and participatory

1341
00:49:37,533 –> 00:49:41,600
of all of the all of the philosophical schools.

1342
00:49:42,633 –> 00:49:44,966
And actually, this is the fundamental contrast

1343
00:49:44,966 –> 00:49:47,100
between stoicism and epicureanism.

1344
00:49:47,100 –> 00:49:48,233
It’s not that the Stoics didn’t

1345
00:49:48,233 –> 00:49:50,800
like pleasure, and the Epicureans did

1346
00:49:51,033 –> 00:49:54,300
is that the Epicureans

1347
00:49:54,300 –> 00:49:58,766
pursued those interests at the expense of participation

1348
00:49:58,766 –> 00:50:00,133
in public life.

1349
00:50:00,133 –> 00:50:03,233
And the Stoics said, No, we are obligated to each other

1350
00:50:03,233 –> 00:50:04,700
and that relationships are important

1351
00:50:04,700 –> 00:50:07,200
and that you can’t run away to your little garden

1352
00:50:07,200 –> 00:50:09,000
and live in a fantasy world.

1353
00:50:09,000 –> 00:50:11,566
And so I see Stoicism as a philosophy

1354
00:50:11,566 –> 00:50:13,466
that’s engaged with other people.

1355
00:50:13,466 –> 00:50:15,900
And and they’re primarily for other people.

1356
00:50:16,566 –> 00:50:17,066
Interesting.

1357
00:50:17,066 –> 00:50:18,533
So also looking at the way

1358
00:50:18,533 –> 00:50:20,433
these philosophers live their lives,

1359
00:50:20,433 –> 00:50:22,366
not just like the first reading that you might

1360
00:50:22,366 –> 00:50:24,300
you might get off of their readings.

1361
00:50:24,300 –> 00:50:25,700
That’s a great distinction as well.

1362
00:50:25,700 –> 00:50:26,700
I know that you’ve

1363
00:50:26,700 –> 00:50:28,533
you recently just opened up an independent

1364
00:50:28,533 –> 00:50:30,166
bookstore in Bastrop, Texas.

1365
00:50:30,166 –> 00:50:31,700
I’m curious to know,

1366
00:50:31,700 –> 00:50:33,200
what do you feel

1367
00:50:33,200 –> 00:50:36,933
the future of the bookstore is in an age of Amazon?

1368
00:50:37,566 –> 00:50:39,533
So it’s been interesting.

1369
00:50:39,533 –> 00:50:40,800
First off,

1370
00:50:41,100 –> 00:50:43,366
probably the worst possible business

1371
00:50:43,366 –> 00:50:45,500
that you could try to open during a pandemic,

1372
00:50:45,733 –> 00:50:48,600
probably the worst possible business you could open, period

1373
00:50:49,166 –> 00:50:49,700
in a world

1374
00:50:49,700 –> 00:50:52,333
where most people don’t read and most people that do read,

1375
00:50:52,333 –> 00:50:54,500
buy online or read audio books or, whatever.

1376
00:50:55,366 –> 00:50:57,466
But it was just it was just something important to me.

1377
00:50:57,466 –> 00:50:59,700
It was something I felt like would would do some good

1378
00:50:59,700 –> 00:51:02,066
in this little community that I’m in. And then,

1379
00:51:03,233 –> 00:51:04,966
you know, something I felt like

1380
00:51:04,966 –> 00:51:07,533
could be additive to what I was already doing

1381
00:51:07,533 –> 00:51:10,933
without much additional work, like I needed office space.

1382
00:51:11,266 –> 00:51:12,900
And then I had this sort of storefront

1383
00:51:12,900 –> 00:51:15,033
beneath the office and I’m sort of what would I do with it?

1384
00:51:15,800 –> 00:51:17,366
And, you know, it’s it’s

1385
00:51:17,366 –> 00:51:20,266
it’s actually integrated in nicely with with the stuff

1386
00:51:20,866 –> 00:51:21,733
that I was already doing.

1387
00:51:21,733 –> 00:51:22,500
The only,

1388
00:51:22,500 –> 00:51:24,066
the only part that

1389
00:51:24,066 –> 00:51:26,900
makes me sad about it is that I part of it

1390
00:51:26,900 –> 00:51:28,766
was I wanted to really interact with people.

1391
00:51:28,766 –> 00:51:32,166
I wanted to do events, I wanted to meet fans.

1392
00:51:32,533 –> 00:51:36,433
I wanted to have I wanted to interact with human beings.

1393
00:51:36,433 –> 00:51:39,833
And the pandemic still makes that a little bit difficult,

1394
00:51:40,000 –> 00:51:42,866
is those experiences where humans connect to humans,

1395
00:51:42,866 –> 00:51:44,400
which not something you get when you order

1396
00:51:44,400 –> 00:51:46,100
something on Prime or Amazon.

1397
00:51:46,100 –> 00:51:48,166
Yeah, it’s certainly not a get rich quick scheme.

1398
00:51:48,166 –> 00:51:51,033
Opening an independent bookstore in 2021.

1399
00:51:52,233 –> 00:51:53,233
I think.

1400
00:51:53,233 –> 00:51:53,866
You know, I think

1401
00:51:53,866 –> 00:51:55,300
there’s something special about bookstores.

1402
00:51:55,300 –> 00:51:58,000
Stoicism is actually founded in a bookstore,

1403
00:51:58,600 –> 00:52:01,600
so I sort of loved the continuity of that

1404
00:52:02,633 –> 00:52:04,400
and that that’s where the name comes from.

1405
00:52:04,400 –> 00:52:06,700
It’s called the Painted Porch, which is the name of what

1406
00:52:06,933 –> 00:52:08,033
the ancient stoic

1407
00:52:08,033 –> 00:52:13,600
translates from it into English from Greek.

1408
00:52:13,600 –> 00:52:15,833
But but I felt like like

1409
00:52:16,300 –> 00:52:18,466
I have a podcast that reaches millions of people.

1410
00:52:18,466 –> 00:52:19,366
I have,

1411
00:52:19,466 –> 00:52:21,266
you know, social media that reaches millions of people.

1412
00:52:21,266 –> 00:52:23,133
My books have sold all over the world.

1413
00:52:23,133 –> 00:52:24,500
But all of that is digital.

1414
00:52:24,500 –> 00:52:25,066
I think

1415
00:52:25,066 –> 00:52:25,566
at this point,

1416
00:52:25,566 –> 00:52:29,866
something like 60% of my sales are in e-book or audio form.

1417
00:52:30,300 –> 00:52:34,066
So but we exist in a physical world, right?

1418
00:52:34,066 –> 00:52:35,100
The digital world is wonderful,

1419
00:52:35,100 –> 00:52:37,133
but we exist in a physical world.

1420
00:52:37,133 –> 00:52:39,066
And so it just felt sort of special

1421
00:52:39,066 –> 00:52:41,800
and important to do something like real.

1422
00:52:41,800 –> 00:52:43,266
And that’s what I was excited to do.

1423
00:52:44,400 –> 00:52:44,900
Right now.

1424
00:52:44,900 –> 00:52:46,600
You’ve got a lot of projects going on.

1425
00:52:46,600 –> 00:52:48,366
Obviously, you’ve got the four books

1426
00:52:48,366 –> 00:52:50,166
on the great Stoic Virtues.

1427
00:52:50,166 –> 00:52:53,833
You’ve opened up the bookstore in Bastrop, Texas.

1428
00:52:53,866 –> 00:52:54,300
Who knows?

1429
00:52:54,300 –> 00:52:56,566
I think you’re maybe even cooking up another

1430
00:52:56,566 –> 00:52:59,600
Grammy Award winning rap album this time. Hopefully not.

1431
00:53:00,200 –> 00:53:02,300
I know you’re a student of Victor Frankl’s

1432
00:53:02,600 –> 00:53:03,633
the constant

1433
00:53:03,633 –> 00:53:04,933
concentration camp survivor

1434
00:53:04,933 –> 00:53:07,133
who founded Logo Therapy, a form of therapy

1435
00:53:07,133 –> 00:53:09,366
where you try to find meaning in life.

1436
00:53:09,366 –> 00:53:10,466
And you’ve also written about this,

1437
00:53:10,466 –> 00:53:12,533
about how Frankl used to hate the question

1438
00:53:12,700 –> 00:53:13,633
What’s the meaning of life?

1439
00:53:13,633 –> 00:53:15,233
As if somebody could just tell you, right?

1440
00:53:15,233 –> 00:53:17,700
Instead, he says that life itself is a question

1441
00:53:17,700 –> 00:53:19,733
and it’s your job to answer with your actions.

1442
00:53:20,000 –> 00:53:20,700
In one of his stories,

1443
00:53:20,700 –> 00:53:23,166
he also talks about the analogy of a chess game.

1444
00:53:23,166 –> 00:53:24,100
Right, people?

1445
00:53:24,100 –> 00:53:25,766
He goes asking what the meaning of life is.

1446
00:53:25,766 –> 00:53:27,866
It’s almost like asking, what’s the best chess move?

1447
00:53:28,333 –> 00:53:30,366
It’s a meaningless question in a vacuum.

1448
00:53:30,366 –> 00:53:32,433
It depends on where you are in the game,

1449
00:53:32,433 –> 00:53:33,133
who you’re playing,

1450
00:53:33,133 –> 00:53:35,366
what your level of skills are, and so on and so forth.

1451
00:53:36,000 –> 00:53:37,400
My question to you is,

1452
00:53:37,400 –> 00:53:38,600
having achieved everything

1453
00:53:38,600 –> 00:53:41,066
you’ve achieved already at your young age,

1454
00:53:41,733 –> 00:53:44,666
having earned the freedom, the independence, the platform,

1455
00:53:44,666 –> 00:53:46,266
the options that you have in front of you,

1456
00:53:47,600 –> 00:53:48,433
what do you see as

1457
00:53:48,433 –> 00:53:50,633
your most important or meaningful work

1458
00:53:50,766 –> 00:53:53,166
and mission in life stretching into the future?

1459
00:53:53,766 –> 00:53:56,900
Well, I guess first off, you would say as a parent,

1460
00:53:56,933 –> 00:53:57,633
you know,

1461
00:53:58,300 –> 00:54:02,433
your greatest shot at of multi-generational impact

1462
00:54:02,433 –> 00:54:03,866
is that home, Right?

1463
00:54:03,866 –> 00:54:06,533
So working on yourself,

1464
00:54:06,533 –> 00:54:08,000
working on your abilities

1465
00:54:08,000 –> 00:54:12,433
as a parent is probably the the most important

1466
00:54:13,000 –> 00:54:14,333
contribution you make,

1467
00:54:14,333 –> 00:54:16,666
certainly the most direct contribution

1468
00:54:16,666 –> 00:54:17,866
you will make to anyone.

1469
00:54:17,866 –> 00:54:19,633
So I take that very seriously.

1470
00:54:19,633 –> 00:54:22,133
And certainly the pandemic has helped with that.

1471
00:54:22,766 –> 00:54:25,700
But I guess as a as a professional,

1472
00:54:25,700 –> 00:54:26,933
I see my

1473
00:54:26,933 –> 00:54:30,066
my contribution in taking ancient ideas

1474
00:54:30,066 –> 00:54:32,200
and making them applicable to modern life.

1475
00:54:32,500 –> 00:54:35,200
And that is something I’m doing for both myself

1476
00:54:35,466 –> 00:54:37,233
and for the audience.

1477
00:54:37,233 –> 00:54:40,500
So I take a lot of satisfaction, but also get a lot of

1478
00:54:40,866 –> 00:54:42,900
joy and fulfillment and

1479
00:54:43,866 –> 00:54:46,200
excitement out of taking

1480
00:54:46,733 –> 00:54:49,266
stories that I’ve found, ideas that I found and

1481
00:54:49,400 –> 00:54:51,700
and communicating them in a way

1482
00:54:51,966 –> 00:54:54,800
that’s compelling and interesting to people.

1483
00:54:54,800 –> 00:54:57,200
I to me, one of the highest bits of praise

1484
00:54:57,200 –> 00:54:59,066
you can get as an author is someone will go,

1485
00:54:59,066 –> 00:55:01,366
I haven’t read a book in years, you know,

1486
00:55:01,400 –> 00:55:04,133
and I read your book. I like to take.

1487
00:55:04,133 –> 00:55:08,566
I am particularly proud that my books have

1488
00:55:09,066 –> 00:55:10,800
are primarily popular with people

1489
00:55:10,800 –> 00:55:13,566
who are not interested in philosophy. Right.

1490
00:55:14,266 –> 00:55:15,700
Because that’s how, you know,

1491
00:55:15,700 –> 00:55:20,833
you’re you’re actually introducing people to new ideas

1492
00:55:21,100 –> 00:55:22,866
as opposed to just

1493
00:55:22,866 –> 00:55:25,666
retreading the same tired things

1494
00:55:25,666 –> 00:55:27,866
to the same small group of people.

1495
00:55:27,866 –> 00:55:28,100
Yeah.

1496
00:55:28,100 –> 00:55:29,566
Your approach is almost the opposite of like,

1497
00:55:29,566 –> 00:55:31,333
you know, philosophy in the classroom, right?

1498
00:55:31,333 –> 00:55:32,166
Super highly

1499
00:55:32,166 –> 00:55:33,966
technical jargon,

1500
00:55:33,966 –> 00:55:37,000
verbose of complicated, difficult to understand,

1501
00:55:37,633 –> 00:55:41,133
kind of confusing complexity of argument with intelligence.

1502
00:55:41,133 –> 00:55:43,633
You try to cut through all of that

1503
00:55:43,933 –> 00:55:45,333
and try to find ways to deliver that,

1504
00:55:45,333 –> 00:55:46,800
that direct insight,

1505
00:55:46,800 –> 00:55:48,700
that direct impact to the reader

1506
00:55:48,700 –> 00:55:49,800
I think that’s one of the reasons

1507
00:55:49,800 –> 00:55:52,200
your books have been so, so successful.

1508
00:55:52,200 –> 00:55:52,333
Well,

1509
00:55:52,333 –> 00:55:53,533
I’ve learned that from Robert GREENE,

1510
00:55:53,533 –> 00:55:54,833
that the best way to teach

1511
00:55:54,833 –> 00:55:57,966
and to illustrate is through story

1512
00:55:57,966 –> 00:56:00,300
that you show rather than tell.

1513
00:56:00,300 –> 00:56:02,033
And so

1514
00:56:02,100 –> 00:56:03,333
from the beginning,

1515
00:56:03,333 –> 00:56:06,900
my books have been illustrations of philosophical ideas,

1516
00:56:07,233 –> 00:56:11,833
rather than explanations or discussions about

1517
00:56:12,200 –> 00:56:13,500
philosophical ideas.

1518
00:56:14,933 –> 00:56:15,233
Hmm.

1519
00:56:15,500 –> 00:56:16,833
Yeah, it’s a great distinction as well.

1520
00:56:16,833 –> 00:56:19,500
It just accelerates the learning process, accelerates,

1521
00:56:20,566 –> 00:56:24,633
you know, the absorption of the insights by the readers.

1522
00:56:24,633 –> 00:56:26,866
So you’re really kind of thinking of the reader first.

1523
00:56:26,866 –> 00:56:29,033
It’s a great approach that you guys have.

1524
00:56:29,966 –> 00:56:30,633
So. Right.

1525
00:56:30,633 –> 00:56:33,100
I want I want to really thank you so much for this.

1526
00:56:33,633 –> 00:56:34,966
You’re doing really important,

1527
00:56:34,966 –> 00:56:37,566
invaluable work, in my opinion, raising

1528
00:56:37,566 –> 00:56:38,700
the collective consciousness,

1529
00:56:38,700 –> 00:56:40,800
spreading useful knowledge to millions of people.

1530
00:56:41,200 –> 00:56:44,000
I think this was a great blend of like modern

1531
00:56:44,000 –> 00:56:46,700
strategic thinking, like very practical,

1532
00:56:46,700 –> 00:56:48,966
very tactical, very immediate,

1533
00:56:48,966 –> 00:56:51,533
and but also blending that with deep wisdom

1534
00:56:51,833 –> 00:56:52,300
in your work

1535
00:56:52,300 –> 00:56:53,266
that always makes it really,

1536
00:56:53,266 –> 00:56:55,166
really interesting and valuable.

1537
00:56:55,166 –> 00:56:58,466
Helping people develop more resilience, more inner peace,

1538
00:56:58,733 –> 00:57:01,600
more resolve, and focus on doing great work

1539
00:57:01,600 –> 00:57:03,900
by controlling what they can control.

1540
00:57:03,900 –> 00:57:06,700
I personally can’t wait to read your books on the force

1541
00:57:06,700 –> 00:57:08,366
talk virtues as a lawyer,

1542
00:57:08,366 –> 00:57:10,666
especially the one on Justice, but all the others as well.

1543
00:57:10,966 –> 00:57:12,966
Obviously, wisdom is always a big one

1544
00:57:12,966 –> 00:57:15,700
and it’s a it’s a complex topic

1545
00:57:15,700 –> 00:57:17,800
and I can’t wait to see how you how you tackle that.

1546
00:57:18,900 –> 00:57:20,033
Keep doing what you’re doing, man.

1547
00:57:20,033 –> 00:57:21,800
It’s fantastic stuff.

1548
00:57:21,800 –> 00:57:22,533
I look forward to

1549
00:57:22,533 –> 00:57:26,033
what the future has in store for you and I can’t wait to

1550
00:57:26,400 –> 00:57:27,733
to consume more of it.

1551
00:57:27,733 –> 00:57:29,866
Well, thank you and congratulations on this.

1552
00:57:30,133 –> 00:57:30,900
This new path.

1553
00:57:30,900 –> 00:57:32,300
I imagine it’s

1554
00:57:32,300 –> 00:57:35,633
requiring a variety of different muscles

1555
00:57:35,633 –> 00:57:36,700
and head

1556
00:57:36,700 –> 00:57:38,400
scratching a bunch of different itches

1557
00:57:38,400 –> 00:57:41,233
than than the corporate legal world.

1558
00:57:41,233 –> 00:57:41,666
Absolutely.

1559
00:57:41,666 –> 00:57:42,966
It’s exactly what you said earlier

1560
00:57:42,966 –> 00:57:44,133
about picking a new path.

1561
00:57:44,133 –> 00:57:45,466
I mean, you picked a new path. It’s great.

1562
00:57:45,466 –> 00:57:47,066
You’ve got this vision, you’ve got this ambition.

1563
00:57:47,066 –> 00:57:47,833
But at the same time,

1564
00:57:47,833 –> 00:57:49,600
you don’t necessarily yet

1565
00:57:49,600 –> 00:57:52,233
have the skills, have the experience,

1566
00:57:52,233 –> 00:57:54,166
have you haven’t trained those muscles yet.

1567
00:57:54,166 –> 00:57:56,400
So it’s a it’s a whole new challenge.

1568
00:57:56,400 –> 00:57:57,366
And I think part of it

1569
00:57:57,366 –> 00:58:00,166
all, part of the joy also is picking a new challenge

1570
00:58:00,166 –> 00:58:02,766
and going back with that beginner’s mind

1571
00:58:02,766 –> 00:58:05,266
where the Japanese talk about beginner’s mind.

1572
00:58:05,266 –> 00:58:07,566
I forget what the term is for that. I think it’s a

1573
00:58:09,200 –> 00:58:10,366
shochu or something.

1574
00:58:10,366 –> 00:58:11,500
I don’t want to mess it up.

1575
00:58:11,500 –> 00:58:12,966
But there’s that that notion

1576
00:58:12,966 –> 00:58:16,033
of approaching it with a beginner’s mindset.

1577
00:58:16,033 –> 00:58:16,733
And, you know,

1578
00:58:16,733 –> 00:58:19,133
if you’re a learner, you always get excited with that.

1579
00:58:19,133 –> 00:58:21,033
And I resonated what you said earlier

1580
00:58:21,033 –> 00:58:24,000
when you made those big transitions.

1581
00:58:24,000 –> 00:58:25,866
That’s sort of like part of what what drives

1582
00:58:25,866 –> 00:58:27,666
you forward is picking a new mountain

1583
00:58:27,666 –> 00:58:29,700
to climb and seeing seeing what you can make of it.

1584
00:58:30,033 –> 00:58:31,766
What at the very least is not boring

1585
00:58:31,766 –> 00:58:33,800
because you’ve never done it before.

1586
00:58:33,800 –> 00:58:34,600
That’s right.

1587
00:58:34,600 –> 00:58:36,800
That’s right. Thanks a lot, Ryan.

1588
00:58:36,800 –> 00:58:37,466
Appreciate it.

1589
00:58:37,466 –> 00:58:38,900
Thank you for having me.