The Fearless Stoic with Ryan Holiday
Ryan Holiday is a multiple-time NYT #1 bestselling author, whose books include Trust me, I’m Lying, The Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy, and Discipline is Destiny. He is the host of the Daily Stoic Podcast, and the owner of The Painted Porch bookstore in Bastrop, Texas.
Mentioned in this Episode:
Ryan’s books and courses can be found here.
Here’s a link to Ryan’s Daily Stoic.
The jazz album co-produced by Ryan, and which won the Grammy Award for Best Large Jazz Ensemble in 2017, is Ted Nash’s Presidential Suite: Eight Variations on Freedom.
The 50th Law is a fantastic little book by Robert Greene and 50 Cent, and expounds on the law of fearlessness, a theme that Ryan and I kept getting back to in this interview.
Character Strengths and Virtues by Martin Seligman and Christopher Peterson, is a masterful study of the universal virtues that exist across all major human cultures.
The Happiness Hypothesis by Jonathan Haidt is a brilliant book, which studies ten great ideas discovered by ancient civilizations, in light of the latest scientific research and psychology findings:
Ryan’s bookstore The Painted Porch in Bastrop, Texas, is bound to become a must-stop for all serious lovers of indie bookstores.
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What is our true purpose on this planet?
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It’s other people, right?
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It’s the it’s the good we’re able to do for
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and through other people.
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As the old Chinese proverb would have it,
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we definitely live in interesting times.
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On one hand, we’re bombarded by shallow TikTok
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videos and mindless clickbait all day long.
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On the other,
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there’s this real thirst for meaning and wisdom,
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and it’s much more than cheesy
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self-help or new age content.
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There’s also a real profound interest in ancient ideas.
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Philosopher feet, spirituality and religion.
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Even one of these ideas systems
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dates back to the third century B.C.
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and has often been portrayed as serious or austere.
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But paradoxically, it’s become extremely popular
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with millions of people today.
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And that’s the school of stoicism,
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founded by ancient Greek
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thinkers like Epictetus,
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and take it to new heights
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by the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius.
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Stoicism. Insights are so eternal and powerful.
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They were actually used to develop
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modern therapies to cure depression and anxiety
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in particular CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy,
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one of the most empirically validated ways
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to cure these ailments without the use of drugs.
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I don’t think I’m exaggerating when I say that
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one person in particular
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has been at the head of this
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amazing revival of Stoicism today,
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and he’s my guest in this episode of the podcast,
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multiple time
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number one, New York Times bestselling author Ryan Holiday.
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Ryan’s a really down to earth and humble guy,
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but don’t let this fool you.
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He’s a total unicorn,
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a real force of nature in terms of his creativity,
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his writing skills and productivity,
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and his ability to communicate complex ideas
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in ways that modern audiences can engage with.
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He started his career
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as the first marketing director for American Apparel
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and literally wrote the book on the dark
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arts of digital marketing.
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His book, Trust Me, I’m Lying, is a very fun read,
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but then something unexpected happened.
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He decided to turn his considerable talents
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to reviving ancient wisdom.
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The man literally took his talents to philosophy.
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He completed an apprenticeship
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with a great writer, Robert Green,
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who he calls the goat of nonfiction writing,
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and right from the jump, started writing bestsellers,
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which are popular with everyone
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from NFL athletes and entertainers
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to top executives and entrepreneurs.
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He’s written more than ten bestselling books,
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and the man is not even close to 40 yet.
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And his channels are followed
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by hundreds of thousands of people daily.
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He’s created a true
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and quite unlikely
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philosophy empire in the modern world
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and is a fantastic interpreter of ancient wisdom.
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It was very impressive
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talking to someone who’s developed fingertip feel
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for such a complex, ancient set of ideas.
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And yet who’s easy and fun to have a conversation with.
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I hope you guys have fun learning
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from Ryan Holiday in this episode of the podcast.
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Enjoy.
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Ryan Holiday Welcome.
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Yeah, thanks for having me.
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All right. Thanks for being here.
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So you’re the bestselling author of ten books
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now, many of them on the wisdom of stoic philosophy,
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including the obstacle is the Way
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Ego is the Enemy and your latest book, Courage is Calling.
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You started your career
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as the first marketing director for American Apparel,
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where you were
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the strategist behind some of the most provocative
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and successful campaigns ever in retail fashion.
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Over the years, you’ve worked with several Mavericks,
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thought leaders
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and bestselling authors,
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including Tucker, Max, Tim Ferriss
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and of course, the great Robert GREENE.
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A lesser known fact
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is that you’ve actually won a Grammy Award
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for producing a jazz album in 2017.
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Just pretty, pretty awesome.
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You’re very active as
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a producer,
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not not the producer, But yes, it was a
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it was a weird experience.
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That’s great. I want to talk about that.
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You’re very active on social and traditional media,
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spreading the wisdom of stoicism to a new generation.
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Your Instagram account,
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Daily Stoic, is a source of daily wisdom.
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Tidbits for over a million people.
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I love it. It’s one of my favorite Instagram accounts.
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I’ve been enjoying your books and insights for years now.
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Ryan Holiday It’s a pleasure and honor
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to have you here with me today.
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Yeah, thanks for having me. Awesome.
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So I want to start by talking a little bit
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about your mindset at work.
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Okay.
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First of all, I look at everything you’ve achieved
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and I can’t believe you’re only 34 years old.
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It’s kind of crazy.
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I mean, you’ve achieved
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more than people do an entire lifetimes,
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and not just in one area,
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but in like multiple areas, like marketing,
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consulting, book
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publishing, music production
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and all at world class award winning levels
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at the same time.
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You seem to also
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have this very humble philosophy about work
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on your Grammy trophy.
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The caption you chose to write on it was.
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When you die,
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this will go in the trash
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along with the rest of your accomplishments.
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In your book, Ego is the Enemy.
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You write about how dangerous it is
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to be invested in the story
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you tell about your own specialness
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and how this can actually hold you back from achieving
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great things.
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You know,
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a lot of people
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today were raised on ideas from the self-esteem movement
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in education where they’re told they’re special and unique
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just the way they are.
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And it’s funny
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because you’re technically part
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of the millennial generation,
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and the cliche is we hear a lot of that.
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You know,
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a lot of people are entitled in that
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in the millennial generation.
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But you seem to be the opposite of that cliche
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when it comes to work.
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I read stories about when you started
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working with Robert Green.
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You transcribed hundreds of pages for him.
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You’d read all the books he doesn’t want to read.
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If he needed something in seven days,
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you get it done in three days.
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There’s something very old school about your work
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ethic and self-discipline and your high standards.
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Tell us a little bit
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about your mindset
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when it comes to work,
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how you approach what you do
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and how where does this come from?
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Yeah, I don’t know
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exactly where it comes from,
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and I have been described that way before.
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I don’t know what generation I would.
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I would assign myself like which one I would identify with.
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But I’ve always just been focused on like doing stuff.
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So not talking about stuff, but doing stuff.
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And especially early on in my career,
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that meant there was a lot of things I had to learn first.
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And so by by like when I was working for Robert,
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it’s funny,
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I was just in Los Angeles very briefly,
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and I went to see Robert,
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and it struck me
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how many as I was driving,
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it was like how many times I’d done
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this drive late at night
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to go drop off a manuscript or a page
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or a book that that he’d had me read or something.
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And like
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I thought
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I recalled it very fondly
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because as as sort of grueling
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as it was and sort of unsexy as it was
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at the same time, I was just beyond excited,
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like I really wanted to be a writer.
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And here was one of the greatest living writers
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in the genre that I wanted to be in.
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And this person was letting me not just like, know them
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and not just pay me money,
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but like letting me work on something
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they were making that I would have been excited
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just to read as a fan. And so I think when you
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when you
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find something that matters to you a great deal
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like that, money is not important. Status is important.
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It’s actually love.
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And you’re interested in that thing.
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You’re sort of willing to do anything and everything else
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kind of falls away.
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So I kind of just
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I just really love, like the work that I do.
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And I know that sounds very simple, you know, like, fine,
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you know, do what you love,
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You’ll never work a day in your life.
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I’m not saying that.
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What I’m saying is that, like,
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my publishing output is not because I was like,
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conscious, like, I need to write this many books.
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It’s that it’s more fun
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and enjoyable for me
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to be writing a book than not writing a book.
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And so I always am doing it.
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And in fact, the hardest part, as I’ve got,
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I think early on in my career,
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I was obviously I wanted to be successful at what I did.
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And there’s a certain amount of sort of ego and validation
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in that. You’re Chase as well.
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But like as I’ve as I’ve gotten on this track now,
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the the one thing I don’t like about the process
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and I’m going through it now on the new book is like
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media is like press is not only like not that fun, but
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the hardest part is like, how do I fit it into the schedule
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when what I really want to be doing is writing?
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Like this morning I had to do a bunch of interviews
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and it was like
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the yeah,
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I wasn’t thinking like, Oh,
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this is so fun and validating and cool.
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I important.
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It was like,
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This is really getting in the way of the writing
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that I wanted to do. And so I think
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it at the core it’s about
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like genuinely finding the process enjoyable
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if that you can nail that down.
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Pretty much everything else follows from it.
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Hmm. So it sounds like you’re really invested in the craft.
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So you found this thing that you love writing books
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and then you immerse yourself in the craft so much
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that even the things that may not be
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the most enjoyable parts of it
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because they’re connected to that thing that you love.
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You learn to love them over time.
250
00:09:09,100 –> 00:09:10,766
Is that fair to say? Yeah.
251
00:09:10,766 –> 00:09:12,633
And so like a book, for example,
252
00:09:12,633 –> 00:09:15,700
a book is a very big problem, right? What is it about?
253
00:09:15,766 –> 00:09:17,766
How will it be set up?
254
00:09:17,766 –> 00:09:18,900
Who, the characters, etc..
255
00:09:18,900 –> 00:09:22,666
But then it’s also a number of many smaller problems.
256
00:09:22,933 –> 00:09:23,300
Right.
257
00:09:24,400 –> 00:09:25,900
What will Chapter three be?
258
00:09:25,900 –> 00:09:27,633
Who you open Chapter three with?
259
00:09:27,633 –> 00:09:29,333
How will you arrange the thoughts?
260
00:09:29,333 –> 00:09:30,333
What are you going to include?
261
00:09:30,333 –> 00:09:31,633
What are you not going to include?
262
00:09:31,633 –> 00:09:33,066
Should chapter three be cut?
263
00:09:33,066 –> 00:09:35,466
Because actually it’s redundant with chapter seven.
264
00:09:35,766 –> 00:09:36,033
Right.
265
00:09:36,033 –> 00:09:38,100
It’s all the little pieces
266
00:09:38,533 –> 00:09:40,800
and I think what I really love is
267
00:09:40,800 –> 00:09:42,566
I love the problem solving.
268
00:09:42,566 –> 00:09:44,833
So I love, first off, the big problem.
269
00:09:44,833 –> 00:09:46,233
What should this be?
270
00:09:46,233 –> 00:09:48,366
What’s the angle on it? Why?
271
00:09:48,366 –> 00:09:51,166
Why is it important? Why do I care about it?
272
00:09:51,166 –> 00:09:53,533
But then I break each big problem
273
00:09:53,533 –> 00:09:56,166
up into lots of smaller problems and I focus on those.
274
00:09:56,166 –> 00:09:57,933
And then so day to day, I’m
275
00:09:57,933 –> 00:10:00,400
not even really thinking about writing a book.
276
00:10:00,700 –> 00:10:03,300
I’m thinking about this little thing
277
00:10:03,300 –> 00:10:04,866
that I have to do, like.
278
00:10:04,866 –> 00:10:10,700
And so I’m always zoomed way in on a pretty engaging,
279
00:10:11,466 –> 00:10:13,166
compelling problem
280
00:10:13,166 –> 00:10:16,266
that if I do that enough times cumulatively
281
00:10:16,500 –> 00:10:19,866
a book comes out of the other side of that. Mm
282
00:10:21,000 –> 00:10:21,466
hmm.
283
00:10:21,800 –> 00:10:22,333
Very interesting.
284
00:10:22,333 –> 00:10:24,766
It’s not really spoken like a true craftsman.
285
00:10:24,766 –> 00:10:25,300
And, you know,
286
00:10:25,300 –> 00:10:28,333
we may look at it from the outside as self-discipline,
287
00:10:28,333 –> 00:10:28,566
and you
288
00:10:28,566 –> 00:10:30,000
like pushing yourself to do things,
289
00:10:30,000 –> 00:10:32,100
but the passion and the love that you have
290
00:10:32,100 –> 00:10:33,033
for what you’ve chosen to do
291
00:10:33,033 –> 00:10:34,400
is very, very clear and evident.
292
00:10:34,400 –> 00:10:36,066
And when I look at your career
293
00:10:36,066 –> 00:10:38,200
as a whole, I see sort of two big themes.
294
00:10:38,533 –> 00:10:39,900
The first one
295
00:10:39,900 –> 00:10:41,400
that you started your career
296
00:10:41,400 –> 00:10:44,800
with, let’s call it the dark arts of digital marketing.
297
00:10:44,933 –> 00:10:46,266
Okay. Yeah.
298
00:10:46,266 –> 00:10:48,966
You practically wrote the book on manipulating
299
00:10:48,966 –> 00:10:50,666
digital media to spark publicity.
300
00:10:50,666 –> 00:10:53,133
I mean, you also actually wrote a book on that topic.
301
00:10:53,366 –> 00:10:54,300
Trust me, I’m lying,
302
00:10:54,300 –> 00:10:57,766
which is really, really fun read and very educational, too.
303
00:10:58,066 –> 00:11:00,633
Your your campaigns for American Apparel are epic.
304
00:11:01,200 –> 00:11:03,833
When you started helping Tucker Max
305
00:11:03,833 –> 00:11:05,566
with his infamous classic
306
00:11:05,566 –> 00:11:07,533
I hope they sell Beer in Hell,
307
00:11:07,533 –> 00:11:08,966
which sold millions of copies.
308
00:11:08,966 –> 00:11:11,633
You guys did some pretty hilarious stuff to drive publicity
309
00:11:11,633 –> 00:11:12,300
and some examples.
310
00:11:12,300 –> 00:11:15,400
You created a Facebook boycott of your own product.
311
00:11:15,800 –> 00:11:18,033
You vandalized your own billboards,
312
00:11:18,366 –> 00:11:22,100
You’d make formal complaints about your own offensive ads,
313
00:11:22,633 –> 00:11:23,833
get them banned,
314
00:11:23,833 –> 00:11:26,500
and then put out a press release denouncing the ban
315
00:11:27,033 –> 00:11:28,400
and really hilarious stuff.
316
00:11:28,400 –> 00:11:30,166
And it was also very effective
317
00:11:30,166 –> 00:11:32,400
at driving publicity and awareness about the book.
318
00:11:32,400 –> 00:11:33,600
And that’s why I say the
319
00:11:33,600 –> 00:11:36,333
I call it the dark arts of marketing and publicity.
320
00:11:36,466 –> 00:11:37,233
The second theme,
321
00:11:37,233 –> 00:11:39,533
though, is the one you developed later on,
322
00:11:39,533 –> 00:11:42,400
and it’s about as far from this world as possible.
323
00:11:42,400 –> 00:11:44,400
It’s about taking Stoicism,
324
00:11:44,400 –> 00:11:47,666
this really deep interest effective philosophy
325
00:11:47,666 –> 00:11:49,233
that was pretty obscure from public view
326
00:11:49,233 –> 00:11:50,466
for a very long time, that you’ve done
327
00:11:50,466 –> 00:11:51,833
a great job popularizing
328
00:11:51,833 –> 00:11:53,100
and democratizing
329
00:11:53,100 –> 00:11:55,200
and bringing it to a new generation, to the,
330
00:11:55,200 –> 00:11:57,233
you know, Facebook, Instagram generation
331
00:11:57,233 –> 00:11:59,400
and almost to the contrary of digital marketing.
332
00:11:59,700 –> 00:12:02,200
Stoicism isn’t about selling or manipulating emotions.
333
00:12:02,200 –> 00:12:04,466
It’s about developing inner fortitude
334
00:12:04,466 –> 00:12:07,600
and not giving in to superficial passions
335
00:12:07,600 –> 00:12:09,133
and overcoming adversity
336
00:12:09,133 –> 00:12:10,566
and not worrying about what
337
00:12:10,566 –> 00:12:12,900
you can’t control and all that good stuff.
338
00:12:12,900 –> 00:12:14,333
How did you transition
339
00:12:14,333 –> 00:12:16,400
from the one to the other in your life?
340
00:12:16,433 –> 00:12:17,933
What led to that switch for you?
341
00:12:17,933 –> 00:12:20,000
Was it an experience, a realization?
342
00:12:20,100 –> 00:12:21,300
How did this come about?
343
00:12:21,300 –> 00:12:24,166
Well, it’s weird because actually the former
344
00:12:24,166 –> 00:12:26,000
or the latter precedes the former.
345
00:12:26,000 –> 00:12:29,233
So I was introduced to Stoicism when I was in college,
346
00:12:29,466 –> 00:12:31,600
and I sort of was very interested in it
347
00:12:31,900 –> 00:12:33,000
as a philosophy
348
00:12:33,000 –> 00:12:34,333
and I was exploring it
349
00:12:34,333 –> 00:12:35,666
and then also profess
350
00:12:35,666 –> 00:12:38,066
personally, I was sort of very interested
351
00:12:38,066 –> 00:12:38,900
in digital marketing.
352
00:12:38,900 –> 00:12:40,633
And so I kind of had this
353
00:12:40,633 –> 00:12:42,766
I think I say this in interesting.
354
00:12:42,766 –> 00:12:43,666
I’m like,
355
00:12:44,000 –> 00:12:44,266
you know,
356
00:12:44,266 –> 00:12:45,800
we think of the word
357
00:12:45,800 –> 00:12:49,833
disintegrated, meaning that it it fell apart, right?
358
00:12:49,833 –> 00:12:54,000
But actually disintegrated means not integrated. Right?
359
00:12:54,266 –> 00:12:57,300
And so I sort of had these two spheres.
360
00:12:57,566 –> 00:12:59,233
So I sort of very interested in marketing
361
00:12:59,233 –> 00:13:00,566
and what one had to do
362
00:13:00,566 –> 00:13:02,400
to be successful in this world
363
00:13:02,400 –> 00:13:03,800
and how one mastered it,
364
00:13:03,800 –> 00:13:05,800
how one understood the logic of that world.
365
00:13:06,000 –> 00:13:07,266
And then personally,
366
00:13:07,266 –> 00:13:10,166
I was very interested in philosophy for my own development.
367
00:13:10,300 –> 00:13:12,900
I was interested in writing about philosophical ideas,
368
00:13:13,400 –> 00:13:15,500
and I admired great writers like Robert GREENE
369
00:13:15,500 –> 00:13:19,166
who were able to communicate those ideas to people. And so
370
00:13:20,700 –> 00:13:22,900
I sort of kept them separate.
371
00:13:22,900 –> 00:13:23,566
And I
372
00:13:23,566 –> 00:13:25,366
but I grew increasingly
373
00:13:25,366 –> 00:13:28,566
disillusioned with not just the
374
00:13:28,566 –> 00:13:31,200
the marketing world that I was in,
375
00:13:31,600 –> 00:13:34,966
but where that would inevitably take me
376
00:13:35,200 –> 00:13:37,866
and what it would mean
377
00:13:37,866 –> 00:13:42,066
if everyone was acting the way that I was acting right.
378
00:13:42,100 –> 00:13:42,300
Like,
379
00:13:42,300 –> 00:13:44,000
I think one of the things that really struck me
380
00:13:44,000 –> 00:13:44,833
as I was sort of
381
00:13:44,833 –> 00:13:47,666
doing these pranks and these stunts is like,
382
00:13:47,666 –> 00:13:50,000
Look, this is relatively harmless stuff
383
00:13:50,333 –> 00:13:50,966
in that I am
384
00:13:50,966 –> 00:13:54,366
promoting a t shirt company or an author or,
385
00:13:54,600 –> 00:13:56,666
you know, an interesting brand.
386
00:13:56,666 –> 00:13:58,566
But what I really became
387
00:13:58,566 –> 00:14:02,133
suspicious and and alarmed about was
388
00:14:02,400 –> 00:14:05,066
what might someone with worse intentions
389
00:14:05,233 –> 00:14:08,033
or motivations be able to do with these same ideas?
390
00:14:08,200 –> 00:14:11,100
And that’s in part what motivated the book,
391
00:14:11,433 –> 00:14:14,233
which was also an opportunity
392
00:14:14,233 –> 00:14:16,266
to transition from one world to the other,
393
00:14:16,266 –> 00:14:17,466
or at least to integrate
394
00:14:18,600 –> 00:14:20,300
them more closely together.
395
00:14:20,300 –> 00:14:23,666
So I always had this idea that I wanted to be a writer,
396
00:14:23,833 –> 00:14:24,966
and then it was really a question
397
00:14:24,966 –> 00:14:27,333
of what the first book might be.
398
00:14:27,333 –> 00:14:29,133
And so for me, the idea of the first book
399
00:14:29,133 –> 00:14:32,300
could be this thing that I was professionally known for,
400
00:14:32,466 –> 00:14:34,500
that I had an interesting perspective on,
401
00:14:34,500 –> 00:14:36,100
and that by writing about it,
402
00:14:36,100 –> 00:14:39,466
I was also, in a sense, burning the boats behind me
403
00:14:39,633 –> 00:14:41,866
and would have to go do something else.
404
00:14:41,866 –> 00:14:45,033
So, you know, the week that Trust Me Online came out,
405
00:14:45,366 –> 00:14:46,600
I had sold the
406
00:14:46,600 –> 00:14:48,900
I went out with and sold the proposal
407
00:14:48,900 –> 00:14:51,100
for what became the obstacle is the way.
408
00:14:51,433 –> 00:14:54,333
So the transition was pretty abrupt.
409
00:14:54,633 –> 00:14:56,100
But the irony was
410
00:14:56,100 –> 00:14:56,900
when I came out
411
00:14:56,900 –> 00:14:59,400
with Trust me, I’m lying, a lot of my readers were like,
412
00:14:59,766 –> 00:15:02,533
I thought you wrote about ancient philosophy.
413
00:15:02,533 –> 00:15:04,933
And then when Trust Me, Online came out and did well,
414
00:15:05,133 –> 00:15:07,200
and then my second book came out about philosophy,
415
00:15:07,200 –> 00:15:08,100
they were like, But wait,
416
00:15:08,100 –> 00:15:09,300
I thought you wrote about marketing.
417
00:15:09,300 –> 00:15:11,700
So there was kind of these weird parallel tracks,
418
00:15:11,700 –> 00:15:14,133
and then they kind of merged and then one stopped,
419
00:15:14,466 –> 00:15:15,633
you know, altogether.
420
00:15:17,300 –> 00:15:19,100
I wonder if I know that
421
00:15:19,100 –> 00:15:20,400
you’re not super political,
422
00:15:20,400 –> 00:15:22,233
but you do have political consciousness
423
00:15:22,233 –> 00:15:24,400
in some of your writings and some of your posts.
424
00:15:24,800 –> 00:15:27,400
And I’m curious to know if your fear
425
00:15:27,600 –> 00:15:30,133
that some of the dark arts that you studied
426
00:15:30,133 –> 00:15:32,366
and published, that you see them manifest
427
00:15:32,700 –> 00:15:34,400
in the political landscape today?
428
00:15:34,400 –> 00:15:36,766
I’m thinking of like Roger Stone, like
429
00:15:38,100 –> 00:15:41,900
tactics, you know, symbolism.
430
00:15:41,966 –> 00:15:43,900
I have the I’ll give you a terrible example.
431
00:15:43,900 –> 00:15:47,433
There’s a guy named Sam Nunberg, who is an aide to Trump,
432
00:15:48,466 –> 00:15:50,800
who he claims and there’s some verification of it.
433
00:15:51,000 –> 00:15:53,600
So his favorite book is trust Me, I’m like this this guy’s.
434
00:15:54,766 –> 00:15:57,066
And he his claim to fame
435
00:15:57,266 –> 00:16:01,400
is that he gave Donald Trump the idea for the border wall.
436
00:16:02,633 –> 00:16:04,266
And so, yeah, it’s okay.
437
00:16:04,266 –> 00:16:06,366
It’s heavy shit and not exactly
438
00:16:07,300 –> 00:16:10,066
it’s exactly the opposite of the intention of the book.
439
00:16:10,066 –> 00:16:10,533
To me.
440
00:16:10,533 –> 00:16:11,133
The idea was
441
00:16:11,133 –> 00:16:13,733
I wanted to expose how media manipulation work,
442
00:16:14,033 –> 00:16:16,066
hopefully to make it less restrictive. Right.
443
00:16:16,666 –> 00:16:18,700
And then to watch
444
00:16:18,700 –> 00:16:20,533
not just political operatives
445
00:16:20,533 –> 00:16:22,566
inside the United States, but you could also argue
446
00:16:22,800 –> 00:16:25,666
a lot of the disinformation and misinformation tactics
447
00:16:25,900 –> 00:16:27,466
of sort of foreign actors,
448
00:16:27,466 –> 00:16:28,366
whether you’re talking about Russia
449
00:16:28,366 –> 00:16:30,766
or China, relies
450
00:16:30,766 –> 00:16:32,300
on some of the same stuff
451
00:16:32,300 –> 00:16:33,933
that I was talking about in the book.
452
00:16:33,933 –> 00:16:35,166
I’m not saying they got it from me,
453
00:16:35,166 –> 00:16:36,966
but these are the ideas
454
00:16:36,966 –> 00:16:39,900
that I was trying to wake people up about.
455
00:16:40,333 –> 00:16:43,266
You know, in 2011 when I was writing that book.
456
00:16:43,266 –> 00:16:45,200
And so the other terrifying part
457
00:16:45,200 –> 00:16:47,033
is, you know, that book is now ten years old.
458
00:16:48,800 –> 00:16:50,566
I thought I was late,
459
00:16:50,566 –> 00:16:52,033
like when I was writing about this stuff.
460
00:16:52,033 –> 00:16:52,766
I was like,
461
00:16:52,766 –> 00:16:55,033
there is a part of me that was like, everyone knows this.
462
00:16:55,266 –> 00:16:56,033
You know, like,
463
00:16:56,033 –> 00:16:57,200
or if I don’t get this out right
464
00:16:57,200 –> 00:16:58,766
away, it’s going to be irrelevant.
465
00:16:58,766 –> 00:17:02,100
And so for that book to continue to be relevant
466
00:17:02,400 –> 00:17:05,700
is not exactly my definition of success.
467
00:17:05,700 –> 00:17:07,566
I would like to have
468
00:17:07,566 –> 00:17:09,000
been proven wrong
469
00:17:09,000 –> 00:17:12,000
or to have done its job, which is that, you know, people
470
00:17:12,833 –> 00:17:14,633
put up some
471
00:17:14,833 –> 00:17:18,766
relatively obvious defenses against, you know, these
472
00:17:18,966 –> 00:17:22,100
these sort of loopholes.
473
00:17:22,233 –> 00:17:24,900
It’s almost a sort of like Frankenstein phenomenon
474
00:17:24,900 –> 00:17:26,533
where it’s like you create this thing.
475
00:17:26,533 –> 00:17:27,733
And clearly in the book,
476
00:17:27,733 –> 00:17:29,000
anybody who reads the book,
477
00:17:29,000 –> 00:17:31,166
you’re trying to sound some alarm bells, right?
478
00:17:31,200 –> 00:17:32,400
And you’re trying to say like,
479
00:17:32,400 –> 00:17:33,000
hey, guys,
480
00:17:33,000 –> 00:17:35,400
look at how the state of journalism and media
481
00:17:35,400 –> 00:17:37,933
has deteriorated to the point that we can do these things
482
00:17:38,266 –> 00:17:39,033
and they work.
483
00:17:39,033 –> 00:17:40,100
There was yes, of course,
484
00:17:40,100 –> 00:17:41,500
there was the tactical goals
485
00:17:41,500 –> 00:17:43,033
that you had for particular products,
486
00:17:43,033 –> 00:17:44,633
but there was also this larger
487
00:17:44,633 –> 00:17:46,566
point of like raising somewhat
488
00:17:46,566 –> 00:17:49,233
some some red flags about journalism ethics
489
00:17:49,233 –> 00:17:51,600
and about how easy it is to manipulate the system.
490
00:17:51,900 –> 00:17:53,933
And lo and behold, we’re like ten years later.
491
00:17:54,233 –> 00:17:55,533
And if anything,
492
00:17:55,533 –> 00:17:57,233
the media apparatus looks like it’s deterred
493
00:17:57,233 –> 00:18:00,066
even more and even more prone to this kind of manipulation.
494
00:18:01,000 –> 00:18:02,066
That’s exactly right.
495
00:18:02,066 –> 00:18:04,466
I sort of likened it even then.
496
00:18:04,666 –> 00:18:04,933
You know,
497
00:18:04,933 –> 00:18:06,533
sometimes people who are really good
498
00:18:06,533 –> 00:18:08,600
computer hackers will like seek
499
00:18:08,600 –> 00:18:10,200
something out for the challenge of it,
500
00:18:10,200 –> 00:18:13,866
like an FBI database or a major corporation.
501
00:18:14,066 –> 00:18:16,133
But there’s a difference between black hat
502
00:18:16,133 –> 00:18:17,266
and white hat and white hat.
503
00:18:17,266 –> 00:18:19,233
Hackers will hack into something
504
00:18:19,233 –> 00:18:21,800
and then sort of explain how they did it
505
00:18:22,000 –> 00:18:25,600
and alert the people to the vulnerabilities in the system.
506
00:18:25,833 –> 00:18:27,800
To me, that’s what I was doing with that book.
507
00:18:27,800 –> 00:18:30,633
And and I think the fact that I published it in a book
508
00:18:30,933 –> 00:18:33,833
instead of, you know, profiting from it
509
00:18:33,833 –> 00:18:35,966
personally is evidence of that.
510
00:18:35,966 –> 00:18:39,900
But the unfortunately, by not by ignoring that,
511
00:18:40,100 –> 00:18:41,166
we’re now in a position
512
00:18:41,166 –> 00:18:43,400
where people who are much more of the Black
513
00:18:43,400 –> 00:18:45,466
hat variety are still able
514
00:18:45,466 –> 00:18:47,566
to take advantage of these same vulnerabilities
515
00:18:47,566 –> 00:18:49,300
and do so on a regular basis.
516
00:18:49,300 –> 00:18:52,733
And that’s why we’re in this divided, dysfunctional,
517
00:18:53,633 –> 00:18:56,700
frankly, delusional media environment
518
00:18:56,700 –> 00:18:58,133
that we’re in, where it’s impossible
519
00:18:58,133 –> 00:19:00,233
to discern fact from fiction.
520
00:19:00,233 –> 00:19:02,666
It’s weaponized against vulnerable communities.
521
00:19:02,666 –> 00:19:06,800
And and basically everyone’s unhappy.
522
00:19:06,800 –> 00:19:08,066
And it’s very interesting.
523
00:19:08,066 –> 00:19:09,933
I find a potential running thread
524
00:19:09,933 –> 00:19:13,666
between your two passions or your large endeavors is
525
00:19:14,400 –> 00:19:16,266
maybe about controlling fear. Right?
526
00:19:16,266 –> 00:19:16,600
You’ve written
527
00:19:16,600 –> 00:19:16,933
you’ve written
528
00:19:16,933 –> 00:19:18,166
about how in your consulting work,
529
00:19:18,166 –> 00:19:19,433
when you go to people about,
530
00:19:19,433 –> 00:19:21,666
you know, different things they can do with their ads
531
00:19:21,666 –> 00:19:24,133
and, you know, asked whether you could
532
00:19:24,133 –> 00:19:26,466
you could deploy this for other fashion companies,
533
00:19:26,766 –> 00:19:27,466
you said, no, you know,
534
00:19:27,466 –> 00:19:29,500
most of them are too afraid to do this.
535
00:19:29,533 –> 00:19:29,833
Right.
536
00:19:29,833 –> 00:19:30,466
There’s a
537
00:19:30,466 –> 00:19:32,233
so there’s a fearlessness
538
00:19:32,233 –> 00:19:34,633
that is implied in everything you do.
539
00:19:35,000 –> 00:19:37,433
And there’s this this this approach to fear,
540
00:19:38,300 –> 00:19:40,533
overcoming fear to achieve your
541
00:19:40,566 –> 00:19:41,600
your outcomes
542
00:19:41,600 –> 00:19:44,033
seems to be seems to be one of the running threads
543
00:19:44,033 –> 00:19:45,266
I find in your work.
544
00:19:45,266 –> 00:19:47,033
Yeah, I guess. I guess that’s true.
545
00:19:47,033 –> 00:19:48,466
I mean, to me what I have always
546
00:19:48,466 –> 00:19:48,900
just found
547
00:19:48,900 –> 00:19:51,400
from a marketing perspective, whatever you’re doing,
548
00:19:51,400 –> 00:19:52,100
whatever industry,
549
00:19:52,100 –> 00:19:57,733
and that there’s a premium attached to being boring.
550
00:19:58,066 –> 00:20:01,766
So if you’re boring, if you’re afraid, if you’re timid, it
551
00:20:01,900 –> 00:20:03,366
everything costs more.
552
00:20:03,366 –> 00:20:05,400
Everything is harder
553
00:20:05,400 –> 00:20:07,633
when you’re interesting, when you’re unique,
554
00:20:07,633 –> 00:20:11,866
when you’re the only one doing a thing, it stands out.
555
00:20:11,866 –> 00:20:13,533
Like, like when I
556
00:20:13,533 –> 00:20:14,766
when I
557
00:20:14,766 –> 00:20:17,100
proposed a first my first book about Stoicism,
558
00:20:17,100 –> 00:20:19,433
my publisher was not very excited.
559
00:20:19,433 –> 00:20:21,733
You know, it’s an obscure school of ancient philosophy.
560
00:20:21,733 –> 00:20:22,700
They were not like,
561
00:20:22,700 –> 00:20:24,400
let’s back up the Brink’s truck
562
00:20:24,400 –> 00:20:25,866
and just throw money at you.
563
00:20:25,866 –> 00:20:28,200
In fact, they offered me considerably less money
564
00:20:28,200 –> 00:20:29,766
than I got for my first book.
565
00:20:29,766 –> 00:20:34,700
And the irony now is that on a regular basis, I’m pitched
566
00:20:35,300 –> 00:20:37,433
for my podcast and such.
567
00:20:37,433 –> 00:20:38,266
I’m pitched
568
00:20:38,266 –> 00:20:41,400
other people who are writing about Stoicism, right?
569
00:20:41,400 –> 00:20:43,800
And so their deals are all of
570
00:20:44,100 –> 00:20:47,433
are easier for higher amounts of money based on,
571
00:20:47,700 –> 00:20:49,033
you know, the
572
00:20:49,200 –> 00:20:51,300
just the track record that I have
573
00:20:51,300 –> 00:20:53,933
and the media attention that I brought to this space.
574
00:20:54,366 –> 00:20:55,800
Now, I’m not like jealous of it.
575
00:20:55,800 –> 00:20:56,600
That’s not why I’m putting out.
576
00:20:56,600 –> 00:20:57,600
What I’m saying is
577
00:20:57,600 –> 00:21:01,066
the irony is it was easier for them in some ways. Right.
578
00:21:01,466 –> 00:21:03,100
But it will ultimately actually
579
00:21:03,100 –> 00:21:05,466
be much harder for them to be successful
580
00:21:05,833 –> 00:21:08,266
because people don’t actually
581
00:21:08,266 –> 00:21:09,866
have that much room
582
00:21:09,866 –> 00:21:13,466
for that many different flavors of one thing.
583
00:21:13,766 –> 00:21:17,200
So you see this in all different
584
00:21:17,600 –> 00:21:21,300
you know, most markets are winner take all markets, right?
585
00:21:21,300 –> 00:21:22,433
And so
586
00:21:22,466 –> 00:21:23,900
people will see that someone’s
587
00:21:23,900 –> 00:21:26,533
successful in a market and think, oh,
588
00:21:26,566 –> 00:21:28,233
I could be successful there, too.
589
00:21:28,233 –> 00:21:29,566
And it’s
590
00:21:29,666 –> 00:21:32,200
the irony is the fact that someone is already there
591
00:21:32,200 –> 00:21:32,900
and successful
592
00:21:32,900 –> 00:21:34,433
makes it safer,
593
00:21:34,433 –> 00:21:35,700
but also less likely
594
00:21:35,700 –> 00:21:38,166
that you will be significantly successful.
595
00:21:38,166 –> 00:21:41,433
So I’m always interested in what are other people
596
00:21:42,000 –> 00:21:42,766
not doing.
597
00:21:42,766 –> 00:21:45,133
That’s what I want to do or what are other people doing.
598
00:21:45,133 –> 00:21:49,200
Let’s not do that. And that’s how do you stand out.
599
00:21:49,766 –> 00:21:52,133
Fearlessness kind of feels like a strong word
600
00:21:52,133 –> 00:21:53,166
to describe that,
601
00:21:53,166 –> 00:21:57,166
but I am always interested in being different or unique
602
00:21:58,000 –> 00:22:01,733
because ironically, it’s scarier to be like everyone else.
603
00:22:01,733 –> 00:22:06,000
It’s just it’s a riskier proposition.
604
00:22:06,000 –> 00:22:06,933
So let’s talk about the inner
605
00:22:06,933 –> 00:22:08,066
phenomenon of fear a little bit.
606
00:22:08,066 –> 00:22:10,133
I think you started working with Robert Green on the book
607
00:22:10,133 –> 00:22:12,433
The 50th Law that you wrote with 50 Cent
608
00:22:12,433 –> 00:22:15,500
on the importance of being Fearless, and her latest book,
609
00:22:15,500 –> 00:22:17,833
which I’ve just preordered, by the way, is called
610
00:22:17,833 –> 00:22:19,833
Courage, is calling on one of the great
611
00:22:20,633 –> 00:22:22,266
four stoic virtues of courage.
612
00:22:22,266 –> 00:22:23,400
And in a lot of ways
613
00:22:23,400 –> 00:22:25,500
we seem to be living in a climate of fear today,
614
00:22:25,500 –> 00:22:26,266
almost panic.
615
00:22:26,266 –> 00:22:27,500
I mean, people are scared of everything.
616
00:22:27,500 –> 00:22:28,633
They’re scared of
617
00:22:28,633 –> 00:22:29,333
whether it’s COVID
618
00:22:29,333 –> 00:22:30,966
or big government or big corporations
619
00:22:30,966 –> 00:22:34,433
or grand global conspiracy or the evil people
620
00:22:34,466 –> 00:22:36,300
on the other side of the political aisle
621
00:22:36,300 –> 00:22:37,500
or the rise of China,
622
00:22:37,500 –> 00:22:39,766
or just like being judged on social media
623
00:22:39,766 –> 00:22:41,266
and being hated on and off.
624
00:22:41,266 –> 00:22:43,200
For sure there are real challenges out there,
625
00:22:43,200 –> 00:22:44,700
but there’s an emotional climate,
626
00:22:44,700 –> 00:22:46,000
it seems almost drenched
627
00:22:46,000 –> 00:22:48,066
in the energy of fear and negativity.
628
00:22:48,300 –> 00:22:48,900
And you’re right,
629
00:22:48,900 –> 00:22:50,100
this and the obstacle is the way
630
00:22:50,100 –> 00:22:51,466
in which the fantastic book
631
00:22:51,466 –> 00:22:53,700
I probably might my favorite one of yours.
632
00:22:53,700 –> 00:22:55,900
Don’t let that negativity in.
633
00:22:55,900 –> 00:22:58,500
Don’t let those emotions even get started.
634
00:22:58,866 –> 00:23:02,133
Just say No, thank you. I can’t afford to panic.
635
00:23:02,566 –> 00:23:04,800
This is the skill that must be cultivated.
636
00:23:04,800 –> 00:23:07,300
Freedom from disturbance and perturbation
637
00:23:07,566 –> 00:23:09,366
so you can focus your energy
638
00:23:09,366 –> 00:23:11,933
exclusively on solving problems
639
00:23:12,200 –> 00:23:14,066
rather than reacting to them.
640
00:23:14,066 –> 00:23:15,866
How do you train yourself
641
00:23:15,866 –> 00:23:17,500
to tune out all the noise
642
00:23:17,500 –> 00:23:19,633
and negativity coming from every direction it seems,
643
00:23:20,000 –> 00:23:21,100
and those emotions
644
00:23:21,100 –> 00:23:23,166
and the fear that it can give rise to
645
00:23:23,166 –> 00:23:25,500
and just stay on task and stay on your path
646
00:23:25,500 –> 00:23:27,600
and keep executing at such a high level.
647
00:23:27,600 –> 00:23:29,066
Well, one of the things I tell myself
648
00:23:29,066 –> 00:23:31,833
is that the thing I’m trying to do is very hard, right?
649
00:23:32,000 –> 00:23:35,400
Whether it’s giving a talk or writing a book or it’s
650
00:23:35,433 –> 00:23:37,800
starting a business or whatever, it’s very hard
651
00:23:38,633 –> 00:23:42,233
and most people don’t succeed at it, right?
652
00:23:42,566 –> 00:23:47,700
And so if it’s hard and the margin of error is low,
653
00:23:48,200 –> 00:23:50,766
then time spent worrying.
654
00:23:50,766 –> 00:23:55,066
Listening to doubters, being anxious,
655
00:23:55,666 –> 00:23:57,933
focusing on these things that you don’t really control
656
00:23:58,300 –> 00:24:00,666
is only taking away
657
00:24:00,966 –> 00:24:04,466
from a finite amount of cognitive ability
658
00:24:04,633 –> 00:24:07,133
or resources that you have to focus on the problem.
659
00:24:07,333 –> 00:24:10,833
I actually have a quote here on the side of my wall
660
00:24:10,833 –> 00:24:12,300
that I’ve been thinking about
661
00:24:12,300 –> 00:24:13,966
as I’ve been writing this new series,
662
00:24:13,966 –> 00:24:15,833
and it’s a quote from Martha Graham,
663
00:24:15,833 –> 00:24:18,566
and she says, Never be afraid of the material.
664
00:24:18,833 –> 00:24:20,866
The material knows when you’re frightened
665
00:24:20,866 –> 00:24:22,500
and it will not help.
666
00:24:22,500 –> 00:24:24,900
And what I like about that is the idea of like
667
00:24:24,900 –> 00:24:26,366
you should be tackling
668
00:24:26,366 –> 00:24:29,500
really ambitious, challenging things, things
669
00:24:29,500 –> 00:24:31,400
that are a reach for you,
670
00:24:31,400 –> 00:24:33,500
that it’s harder than something you’ve done before.
671
00:24:33,666 –> 00:24:35,866
It’s something maybe you don’t quite understand.
672
00:24:36,400 –> 00:24:40,300
It’s it’s a big leap, right? So you should be doing that.
673
00:24:40,666 –> 00:24:41,933
But then the irony is,
674
00:24:41,933 –> 00:24:44,700
if you are afraid, if you’re doing it
675
00:24:44,700 –> 00:24:47,700
now out of timidity or doubt,
676
00:24:47,700 –> 00:24:49,633
or you’re coming at it from a place of
677
00:24:50,733 –> 00:24:52,000
from
678
00:24:53,366 –> 00:24:56,700
uncertainty, you will likely
679
00:24:57,366 –> 00:24:59,500
it will be harder, you will not be successful.
680
00:24:59,500 –> 00:25:01,466
So like when I’m writing
681
00:25:01,466 –> 00:25:03,733
this series of books, I’m not going, this is so hard.
682
00:25:03,733 –> 00:25:06,500
You’ve never done a four book series before.
683
00:25:06,633 –> 00:25:07,933
What if it doesn’t work?
684
00:25:07,933 –> 00:25:10,466
I’m just thinking it’s a four book series.
685
00:25:10,533 –> 00:25:13,500
You’ve already written four books before.
686
00:25:13,500 –> 00:25:16,400
You know, thinking about the totality of the problem
687
00:25:16,633 –> 00:25:18,166
is going to be overwhelming.
688
00:25:18,166 –> 00:25:19,766
What do you have to do today?
689
00:25:19,766 –> 00:25:25,066
Let’s just do that and then we’ll take it from there.
690
00:25:25,066 –> 00:25:26,200
So you’re very practical
691
00:25:26,200 –> 00:25:27,666
in how you break down these philosophical.
692
00:25:27,666 –> 00:25:29,100
I almost think like in the
693
00:25:29,100 –> 00:25:30,266
in Aristotle’s tradition,
694
00:25:30,266 –> 00:25:32,500
like the emphasis on practical wisdom. Right.
695
00:25:32,766 –> 00:25:35,433
It’s not like this crazy construction.
696
00:25:35,433 –> 00:25:37,700
It’s just like, look, I have limited bandwidth.
697
00:25:37,833 –> 00:25:39,833
What I’m doing is difficult.
698
00:25:39,833 –> 00:25:40,966
If I and then
699
00:25:40,966 –> 00:25:41,400
it just
700
00:25:41,400 –> 00:25:43,600
logically sort of coheres
701
00:25:43,600 –> 00:25:44,033
with that,
702
00:25:44,033 –> 00:25:46,033
that if you spend energy and time
703
00:25:46,466 –> 00:25:47,700
focusing on, you know,
704
00:25:47,700 –> 00:25:49,333
what other people are saying, what other people,
705
00:25:49,333 –> 00:25:51,166
you’re just removing that.
706
00:25:51,166 –> 00:25:52,966
It’s a very practical consideration.
707
00:25:52,966 –> 00:25:54,866
I find it very, very interesting and
708
00:25:54,866 –> 00:25:56,666
and very helpful actually,
709
00:25:56,666 –> 00:25:59,000
to just break it down in very simple,
710
00:25:59,200 –> 00:26:02,066
pragmatic terms like this, just, you know,
711
00:26:02,100 –> 00:26:03,933
attempting big things.
712
00:26:03,933 –> 00:26:07,300
You need. Every ounce of energy makes a ton of sense. Yeah.
713
00:26:08,500 –> 00:26:08,766
Yeah.
714
00:26:08,766 –> 00:26:10,433
I think it’s it’s just about right.
715
00:26:10,433 –> 00:26:13,500
It’s a resource allocation issue to me.
716
00:26:13,500 –> 00:26:15,600
Mm hmm. Interesting.
717
00:26:15,600 –> 00:26:17,666
So what would be a great fear
718
00:26:17,666 –> 00:26:20,133
that you you’d say you’ve overcome in your life
719
00:26:20,700 –> 00:26:22,500
that has actually helped
720
00:26:22,500 –> 00:26:24,000
you become who you’ve become today?
721
00:26:24,000 –> 00:26:26,733
What what was a great example of a fear
722
00:26:26,733 –> 00:26:28,333
that you had maybe at one point
723
00:26:28,333 –> 00:26:28,866
where you feel
724
00:26:28,866 –> 00:26:31,933
that your ability to overcome that contributed to,
725
00:26:32,200 –> 00:26:34,633
you know, turning into who you are today?
726
00:26:34,633 –> 00:26:35,766
Well, I’ve got a bunch of them, but
727
00:26:35,766 –> 00:26:37,366
but sort of two that were related.
728
00:26:37,366 –> 00:26:39,533
There’s sort of two big transition points in my life
729
00:26:39,533 –> 00:26:42,066
were first when I dropped out of college to work for Robert
730
00:26:42,366 –> 00:26:44,600
and then second, when after I had
731
00:26:45,466 –> 00:26:47,400
gone on and had a career in marketing
732
00:26:47,400 –> 00:26:49,033
to leave the marketing world.
733
00:26:49,033 –> 00:26:51,900
So I’ve like the sure thing of a salary to become a writer.
734
00:26:52,200 –> 00:26:54,266
Then you can argue maybe the decision to go from
735
00:26:54,266 –> 00:26:56,100
one kind of writing to the other kind of writing,
736
00:26:56,100 –> 00:26:57,166
but the one,
737
00:26:57,166 –> 00:26:59,733
the three things all have in common,
738
00:26:59,733 –> 00:27:03,500
the idea of sort of leaving the status quo
739
00:27:04,333 –> 00:27:06,400
where the comfort of the present moment
740
00:27:06,400 –> 00:27:09,766
behind for a riskier but potentially
741
00:27:10,766 –> 00:27:13,766
more lucrative or exciting or fulfilling future.
742
00:27:13,966 –> 00:27:14,233
Right.
743
00:27:14,233 –> 00:27:15,266
The decision to
744
00:27:15,266 –> 00:27:18,733
to transition from one thing to another to change horses.
745
00:27:19,866 –> 00:27:21,133
And the first time I did it,
746
00:27:21,133 –> 00:27:24,066
I was like, just beyond terrified, like I could.
747
00:27:24,066 –> 00:27:27,233
I thought I’d end up under a bridge somewhere, you know,
748
00:27:27,366 –> 00:27:29,166
if my family was terrified.
749
00:27:29,166 –> 00:27:31,233
My parents basically, like, disowned me.
750
00:27:31,233 –> 00:27:32,566
It was like the biggest thing
751
00:27:32,566 –> 00:27:34,900
that I had done in my life at that point, right?
752
00:27:34,933 –> 00:27:40,300
Like, I, I wasn’t just like, trying some new thing.
753
00:27:40,533 –> 00:27:42,233
I was blowing up.
754
00:27:42,233 –> 00:27:47,100
You know, 20 years of work and
755
00:27:49,066 –> 00:27:52,666
direction and safety to do in uncertain thing.
756
00:27:53,733 –> 00:27:55,633
But the the interesting thing
757
00:27:55,633 –> 00:27:57,300
that I found almost immediately
758
00:27:57,300 –> 00:28:00,500
thereafter was that it was a lot less scary than I thought.
759
00:28:00,500 –> 00:28:02,700
I remember walking in to drop out
760
00:28:02,700 –> 00:28:06,400
and thinking like it was this sort of irrevocable,
761
00:28:06,600 –> 00:28:08,700
life altering decision.
762
00:28:09,033 –> 00:28:10,100
And I was like,
763
00:28:10,100 –> 00:28:12,700
you know, I’m here to drop out of college for whatever.
764
00:28:12,700 –> 00:28:14,766
And I remember the woman in the office was like,
765
00:28:15,033 –> 00:28:16,600
That’s not a thing.
766
00:28:16,600 –> 00:28:16,933
You know?
767
00:28:16,933 –> 00:28:19,100
She was like, You can take a semester off
768
00:28:19,366 –> 00:28:21,500
and then just not reenroll.
769
00:28:21,500 –> 00:28:23,533
And I was like, Oh, okay, I’ll do that, you know?
770
00:28:23,833 –> 00:28:26,766
And so I thought I was like, jumping off this cliff.
771
00:28:26,766 –> 00:28:27,400
And I get there
772
00:28:27,400 –> 00:28:28,400
and it’s like,
773
00:28:28,400 –> 00:28:31,133
dude, there’s like stairs just walk down the stairs
774
00:28:31,133 –> 00:28:32,766
and then you can come back up
775
00:28:32,766 –> 00:28:35,066
if you don’t like what you see at the bottom, right?
776
00:28:35,533 –> 00:28:36,733
And so
777
00:28:36,733 –> 00:28:39,000
realizing very quickly that it was a lot
778
00:28:39,000 –> 00:28:41,600
less scary than you think, it’s only scary
779
00:28:41,633 –> 00:28:44,833
because you haven’t done it and was really helpful to me.
780
00:28:44,833 –> 00:28:46,466
And then to see
781
00:28:46,466 –> 00:28:49,166
as I went through that I was stronger than I knew.
782
00:28:49,166 –> 00:28:51,333
I was more talented than I perhaps thought
783
00:28:51,633 –> 00:28:54,000
that I had more control over my life than I thought.
784
00:28:54,833 –> 00:28:56,566
Then allowed me the other mode,
785
00:28:56,566 –> 00:28:58,866
the other sort of pivot moment.
786
00:28:58,866 –> 00:28:59,433
It was
787
00:28:59,433 –> 00:28:59,933
it was like,
788
00:28:59,933 –> 00:29:02,966
Oh, I’ve been at a juncture like this before, right?
789
00:29:02,966 –> 00:29:04,633
If you never have
790
00:29:04,633 –> 00:29:07,300
and you avoid it each time, it gets scarier.
791
00:29:07,633 –> 00:29:10,400
If you go towards it, if you explore it,
792
00:29:10,500 –> 00:29:13,200
then it gets less scary as you go.
793
00:29:13,200 –> 00:29:15,600
So like if you told me tomorrow,
794
00:29:15,600 –> 00:29:16,933
let’s say tomorrow, it was like, Hey,
795
00:29:16,933 –> 00:29:17,666
do you want to
796
00:29:17,666 –> 00:29:20,700
sell everything you own and move to South America
797
00:29:20,700 –> 00:29:23,033
to start a llama farm or something?
798
00:29:23,033 –> 00:29:25,966
If I actually wanted to do that, I’d be like, sure, that’s
799
00:29:26,166 –> 00:29:27,300
I could I could do that.
800
00:29:27,300 –> 00:29:30,100
Like I could figure that out, right? That’s not that.
801
00:29:30,366 –> 00:29:32,833
There are a lot scarier things in the world than that.
802
00:29:32,833 –> 00:29:33,433
Right.
803
00:29:33,433 –> 00:29:34,633
And I imagine, you know,
804
00:29:34,633 –> 00:29:37,266
the first time you run into a building as a firefighter,
805
00:29:37,500 –> 00:29:39,600
the first time you’re under fire as a
806
00:29:39,600 –> 00:29:41,100
Special Forces operator or
807
00:29:43,133 –> 00:29:46,100
you have a similar understanding of, oh, okay.
808
00:29:46,300 –> 00:29:49,433
Part of why this was so intimidating and scary to me
809
00:29:49,633 –> 00:29:51,766
was my lack of familiarity with it.
810
00:29:51,966 –> 00:29:54,200
And now that I’m familiar with it,
811
00:29:54,200 –> 00:29:57,100
I understand it and I understand there’s a process.
812
00:29:57,300 –> 00:30:00,266
If I follow that process, I’ll be more successful.
813
00:30:00,266 –> 00:30:03,800
I’ll be successful more often than not.
814
00:30:03,800 –> 00:30:05,166
So it’s almost like not jumping
815
00:30:05,166 –> 00:30:07,100
to the extreme conclusion or the extreme
816
00:30:07,100 –> 00:30:09,966
scenario of what might happen when I do this
817
00:30:10,333 –> 00:30:12,900
and just kind of focusing on like the next step
818
00:30:12,900 –> 00:30:13,733
and then the next step,
819
00:30:13,733 –> 00:30:14,800
and then investing yourself
820
00:30:14,800 –> 00:30:16,766
in that process, giving yourself a chance,
821
00:30:16,766 –> 00:30:18,300
telling yourself, you know what,
822
00:30:18,300 –> 00:30:20,100
we can always pivot, we can always move,
823
00:30:20,100 –> 00:30:21,600
we can always countermove.
824
00:30:21,600 –> 00:30:23,566
It’s not the end of the story, right?
825
00:30:23,566 –> 00:30:26,100
Not staying at that freeze frame moment
826
00:30:26,100 –> 00:30:27,033
in the distant future
827
00:30:27,033 –> 00:30:29,200
of all the catastrophic things that may happen.
828
00:30:29,400 –> 00:30:29,700
Yes.
829
00:30:29,700 –> 00:30:30,300
And again,
830
00:30:30,300 –> 00:30:33,000
just going back down to the practicality of the next step,
831
00:30:33,166 –> 00:30:35,700
sounds like that’s the process that they’ve gone through.
832
00:30:35,833 –> 00:30:38,566
We sort of have these vague ideas
833
00:30:38,833 –> 00:30:40,266
of what we’re worried about.
834
00:30:40,266 –> 00:30:42,700
We have these fears, but we don’t actually understand them.
835
00:30:43,166 –> 00:30:46,733
And so when you explore them or you experience them,
836
00:30:47,333 –> 00:30:49,100
you do have that familiarity.
837
00:30:49,100 –> 00:30:50,466
And so
838
00:30:50,566 –> 00:30:52,833
it’s, you know, the Stoics talk about how what’s
839
00:30:52,833 –> 00:30:57,766
what’s foreseen lands less heavily than what is unforeseen.
840
00:30:58,100 –> 00:31:00,500
So like on a book, it could fail.
841
00:31:00,500 –> 00:31:02,666
It could be not just a failure,
842
00:31:02,666 –> 00:31:05,133
it could be an embarrassing failure.
843
00:31:05,400 –> 00:31:07,333
So what? You know what I mean.
844
00:31:07,333 –> 00:31:12,366
I’ve now explored that, thought about it, touched it enough
845
00:31:12,800 –> 00:31:13,200
that,
846
00:31:14,466 –> 00:31:16,333
again, there’s worse things that could happen.
847
00:31:16,333 –> 00:31:16,600
Right?
848
00:31:16,600 –> 00:31:18,866
And so I think when you instead of
849
00:31:19,700 –> 00:31:22,300
like, Oh, I don’t want to talk about that, that’s scary.
850
00:31:22,300 –> 00:31:24,966
Or like, I don’t want to I don’t want to
851
00:31:24,966 –> 00:31:27,733
I don’t want it to be a bad omen or bad luck or whatever.
852
00:31:27,933 –> 00:31:32,233
You almost make it scarier because it’s undefined, right?
853
00:31:32,700 –> 00:31:34,100
So focusing on the way.
854
00:31:34,100 –> 00:31:36,300
Okay. And the obstacle is the way.
855
00:31:36,300 –> 00:31:39,000
Fantastic book again, but I highly recommend that anybody
856
00:31:39,700 –> 00:31:41,400
build on this great insight
857
00:31:41,400 –> 00:31:43,133
by the Stoic Emperor Marcus Aurelius.
858
00:31:43,133 –> 00:31:44,933
When he writes, the mind adapts
859
00:31:44,933 –> 00:31:46,733
and converts to its own purposes.
860
00:31:46,733 –> 00:31:48,600
The obstacle to our acting,
861
00:31:48,600 –> 00:31:51,400
the impediment to action, advances action.
862
00:31:51,633 –> 00:31:53,666
What stands in the way becomes the way.
863
00:31:54,200 –> 00:31:56,400
And it’s a piece of wisdom that I find that’s aged
864
00:31:56,400 –> 00:31:58,433
very well in this crazy 21st century
865
00:31:58,433 –> 00:32:00,133
where life is changing so fast
866
00:32:00,133 –> 00:32:02,833
and the pandemic and technology and constant change.
867
00:32:02,933 –> 00:32:04,400
People are facing obstacles
868
00:32:04,400 –> 00:32:06,666
that no one ever predicted that they might face.
869
00:32:07,500 –> 00:32:10,433
But a lot of people I speak to today question
870
00:32:10,433 –> 00:32:14,000
how much agency they really have, little old them
871
00:32:14,333 –> 00:32:16,300
to overcome the obstacles in their lives.
872
00:32:16,300 –> 00:32:16,800
I mean,
873
00:32:16,800 –> 00:32:19,700
what do you do when COVID has wiped out your business
874
00:32:19,700 –> 00:32:22,033
or when you’ve lost a loved one
875
00:32:22,033 –> 00:32:24,300
or you’re struggling with depression or addiction
876
00:32:24,300 –> 00:32:25,066
when you’re not even sure
877
00:32:25,066 –> 00:32:27,200
that your career path even exists anymore?
878
00:32:27,600 –> 00:32:29,400
A lot of them have very compelling stories
879
00:32:29,400 –> 00:32:30,166
when you listen to them
880
00:32:30,166 –> 00:32:32,500
and the adversity they speak of is real.
881
00:32:32,500 –> 00:32:34,733
What would you respond to those who say, okay,
882
00:32:34,733 –> 00:32:37,166
the obstacle is the way is good advice.
883
00:32:37,166 –> 00:32:39,900
If the obstacle is somewhat manageable
884
00:32:40,566 –> 00:32:43,066
or when you have the resources to deal with it.
885
00:32:43,400 –> 00:32:46,500
But when it’s too big or overwhelming, it’s not so simple.
886
00:32:46,500 –> 00:32:48,666
And like the obstacle is the obstacle,
887
00:32:48,666 –> 00:32:53,766
it it’s still it’s almost more true in those extreme cases
888
00:32:53,766 –> 00:32:55,166
than the minor cases, right?
889
00:32:55,166 –> 00:32:57,900
So when we say the obstacle is the way we’re not,
890
00:32:58,166 –> 00:32:58,600
is it
891
00:32:58,600 –> 00:33:00,300
is it also true that flippantly,
892
00:33:00,300 –> 00:33:02,033
like, hey, you can use this for good,
893
00:33:03,033 –> 00:33:05,333
that, hey, maybe there’s a little bit there’s a
894
00:33:05,333 –> 00:33:06,133
we’re going to turn this into
895
00:33:06,133 –> 00:33:07,766
the best thing that ever happened?
896
00:33:07,766 –> 00:33:08,666
Yes, that’s true.
897
00:33:08,666 –> 00:33:10,433
But I’m actually I think the Stoics,
898
00:33:10,433 –> 00:33:12,800
when they’re talking about this idea of the obstacles,
899
00:33:12,800 –> 00:33:13,200
the way
900
00:33:13,533 –> 00:33:14,600
they’re talking
901
00:33:14,600 –> 00:33:17,066
primarily about these major
902
00:33:17,066 –> 00:33:19,466
other things that are outside of our control.
903
00:33:19,466 –> 00:33:22,133
So let’s say your business has been destroyed by COVID.
904
00:33:22,433 –> 00:33:25,333
First off, I’m sorry, That sucks. It’s not your fault.
905
00:33:26,466 –> 00:33:29,233
If I wish that it hadn’t happened to you. Right.
906
00:33:29,933 –> 00:33:31,500
But it did happen to you.
907
00:33:31,500 –> 00:33:34,033
So the obstacle is still the way, right?
908
00:33:34,766 –> 00:33:36,300
Give me another way.
909
00:33:36,300 –> 00:33:38,900
Right. Like you’re going to magically make this happen.
910
00:33:39,600 –> 00:33:41,800
You’re going to blame someone else.
911
00:33:41,800 –> 00:33:42,366
You’re going
912
00:33:42,366 –> 00:33:45,133
to expect someone else to solve it
913
00:33:45,133 –> 00:33:48,100
for, you know, like it’s still there.
914
00:33:48,100 –> 00:33:50,400
And the fact that it’s bigger
915
00:33:50,400 –> 00:33:52,400
and than it’s been is catastrophic
916
00:33:52,633 –> 00:33:53,633
as it was,
917
00:33:53,633 –> 00:33:55,933
almost makes it more of an imperative
918
00:33:56,200 –> 00:33:58,800
that you have to figure out
919
00:33:58,800 –> 00:34:00,300
what you’re going to do with this.
920
00:34:00,300 –> 00:34:02,000
So when the Stoics say, like,
921
00:34:02,000 –> 00:34:03,033
we don’t control what happens,
922
00:34:03,033 –> 00:34:04,900
we control how we respond, right?
923
00:34:04,900 –> 00:34:09,100
Which is basic, but also very brilliant and complex.
924
00:34:09,366 –> 00:34:13,166
So a lot of the world is just outside of our control.
925
00:34:13,166 –> 00:34:14,466
We don’t control the pandemic,
926
00:34:14,466 –> 00:34:15,700
but we control
927
00:34:15,700 –> 00:34:20,766
what we learn from and change because of the pandemic.
928
00:34:20,766 –> 00:34:21,533
So, you know,
929
00:34:21,533 –> 00:34:22,500
you hear people go, Oh, I can’t
930
00:34:22,500 –> 00:34:25,766
wait for things to go back to normal.
931
00:34:25,766 –> 00:34:27,766
Normal is what caused this, right?
932
00:34:27,766 –> 00:34:30,666
So, you know, you lose someone,
933
00:34:30,666 –> 00:34:32,300
you lose someone you love in a pandemic
934
00:34:32,300 –> 00:34:35,300
or in an accident or something. Again, tragic, unfortunate.
935
00:34:35,300 –> 00:34:36,433
You wouldn’t have chosen it.
936
00:34:37,733 –> 00:34:40,933
But are you going to make that event more tragic
937
00:34:41,300 –> 00:34:45,966
by becoming paralyzed by it, by declining to
938
00:34:46,600 –> 00:34:48,666
to remember them fondly?
939
00:34:48,666 –> 00:34:50,833
Because are you going to torture yourself
940
00:34:51,200 –> 00:34:52,600
because something sad happened?
941
00:34:52,600 –> 00:34:53,333
Like, no,
942
00:34:53,333 –> 00:34:55,900
you have to figure out how to move on
943
00:34:55,900 –> 00:34:59,133
and move forward and integrate the memory
944
00:34:59,366 –> 00:35:01,433
and the good things about that relationship
945
00:35:01,433 –> 00:35:02,800
into your life going forward.
946
00:35:02,800 –> 00:35:05,033
So what the Stoics are saying
947
00:35:05,033 –> 00:35:05,566
is not that
948
00:35:05,566 –> 00:35:06,900
everything bad
949
00:35:06,900 –> 00:35:09,266
is good if you just flip it upside down, that
950
00:35:09,300 –> 00:35:12,966
that would be very insensitive and and naive.
951
00:35:13,300 –> 00:35:16,333
What the Stoics are saying is that everything that happens
952
00:35:16,633 –> 00:35:18,966
is an opportunity to practice
953
00:35:19,200 –> 00:35:22,133
one of the stoic virtues, right?
954
00:35:22,133 –> 00:35:24,366
Everything is an opportunity
955
00:35:24,366 –> 00:35:26,400
to prove yourself,
956
00:35:26,666 –> 00:35:28,500
to prove what you believe in,
957
00:35:28,500 –> 00:35:30,600
to prove what you’re capable of.
958
00:35:30,600 –> 00:35:34,166
That’s what that idea means. Hmm.
959
00:35:34,733 –> 00:35:35,300
That’s great.
960
00:35:35,300 –> 00:35:36,466
So that’s always and that’s
961
00:35:36,466 –> 00:35:37,800
what I’ve always believed, is that, you know,
962
00:35:37,800 –> 00:35:40,966
it’s almost like with those biggest obstacles that,
963
00:35:41,266 –> 00:35:42,600
you know, there’s this notion that we read up
964
00:35:42,600 –> 00:35:44,366
sometimes in psychology, it’s not your fault,
965
00:35:44,366 –> 00:35:45,500
but it’s your responsibility.
966
00:35:45,500 –> 00:35:47,700
How you respond to whatever happens to you.
967
00:35:47,733 –> 00:35:48,966
It’s not your fault, right?
968
00:35:48,966 –> 00:35:49,966
I mean, you know,
969
00:35:49,966 –> 00:35:51,633
if your business, even if it was represent
970
00:35:51,633 –> 00:35:55,366
a lot of businesses that we see never was right right now.
971
00:35:55,433 –> 00:35:56,666
And it’s like a lot of businesses
972
00:35:56,666 –> 00:35:59,000
that were like even if it was your fault. Right.
973
00:35:59,066 –> 00:36:00,000
It’s still happened.
974
00:36:00,000 –> 00:36:02,300
So what what what are you going to do? You know, happened?
975
00:36:02,466 –> 00:36:04,600
Yeah, right.
976
00:36:04,600 –> 00:36:05,666
So you start with the facts.
977
00:36:05,666 –> 00:36:07,666
You start with the fact of this is going on
978
00:36:07,666 –> 00:36:08,700
whether you like it or not,
979
00:36:08,700 –> 00:36:11,133
whether you predicted that it would happen or not.
980
00:36:11,133 –> 00:36:12,366
And a lot of people that go through
981
00:36:12,366 –> 00:36:13,966
a lot of ups and downs during COVID, it’s
982
00:36:13,966 –> 00:36:15,333
like in a sense,
983
00:36:15,333 –> 00:36:17,500
their business was exposed to that risk
984
00:36:17,500 –> 00:36:19,400
or that fragility, Right?
985
00:36:19,400 –> 00:36:23,033
COVID highlighted it, unfortunately ruthlessly.
986
00:36:23,033 –> 00:36:24,433
And so now, in a sense, it’s
987
00:36:24,433 –> 00:36:25,066
an opportunity
988
00:36:25,066 –> 00:36:26,900
to build something that perhaps
989
00:36:26,900 –> 00:36:30,233
is not as fragile to these kinds of changes.
990
00:36:30,233 –> 00:36:33,666
Easy to say, but at the same time, these are the facts.
991
00:36:33,666 –> 00:36:35,233
What are you going to do about it? Right.
992
00:36:35,233 –> 00:36:37,400
Or to change direction in your life?
993
00:36:37,766 –> 00:36:39,333
It’s a chance to rebuild.
994
00:36:39,333 –> 00:36:40,633
It’s a chance to grow.
995
00:36:40,633 –> 00:36:42,466
It’s a chance to exit.
996
00:36:42,466 –> 00:36:44,433
Something that you should have needed.
997
00:36:44,433 –> 00:36:46,033
You should have already exited. Right.
998
00:36:46,033 –> 00:36:48,466
That like there’s an infinite amount of ways
999
00:36:48,466 –> 00:36:49,566
you can look at it.
1000
00:36:49,566 –> 00:36:51,500
But the point is it happened
1001
00:36:51,500 –> 00:36:54,366
and whether it was your fault or not,
1002
00:36:54,366 –> 00:36:55,533
whether you could have done it
1003
00:36:55,533 –> 00:36:59,500
differently or not is now irrelevant because it did happen.
1004
00:36:59,866 –> 00:37:01,466
So now what?
1005
00:37:01,466 –> 00:37:02,033
Right.
1006
00:37:02,033 –> 00:37:03,500
And I was thinking about this the other day.
1007
00:37:03,500 –> 00:37:05,433
It’s sort of like I think
1008
00:37:05,433 –> 00:37:07,466
the really superficial level is the start.
1009
00:37:07,466 –> 00:37:09,566
You’d be like, here, this bad thing happened to me.
1010
00:37:10,066 –> 00:37:13,200
And then the Stoics would be like, So, so what?
1011
00:37:13,700 –> 00:37:16,633
You’re like, So what are you going to do about it?
1012
00:37:16,866 –> 00:37:17,700
Right like that.
1013
00:37:17,700 –> 00:37:20,300
That’s where that’s what we’re trying to figure out.
1014
00:37:20,300 –> 00:37:22,366
What am I going to about this?
1015
00:37:23,200 –> 00:37:25,266
It’s almost really like like stressing
1016
00:37:25,266 –> 00:37:27,233
and emphasizing the agency piece of this.
1017
00:37:27,233 –> 00:37:28,500
So between
1018
00:37:28,500 –> 00:37:30,133
stimulus and response,
1019
00:37:30,133 –> 00:37:33,166
there’s an opportunity to make a choice
1020
00:37:33,900 –> 00:37:35,833
and sort of expand in that space.
1021
00:37:37,266 –> 00:37:38,200
Exactly.
1022
00:37:38,200 –> 00:37:39,100
That’s great.
1023
00:37:39,633 –> 00:37:43,800
So in a lot of ways, I also find that stoicism can be
1024
00:37:44,600 –> 00:37:45,366
one of,
1025
00:37:45,366 –> 00:37:46,666
if not the perfect antidote
1026
00:37:46,666 –> 00:37:47,766
to developing inner peace
1027
00:37:47,766 –> 00:37:49,366
at a time when the culture tells us
1028
00:37:49,366 –> 00:37:51,000
it’s always about chasing more, right?
1029
00:37:51,000 –> 00:37:54,600
More money, more success, more attention, more fame,
1030
00:37:55,000 –> 00:37:57,200
we get almost emotionally addicted to
1031
00:37:57,200 –> 00:37:59,933
and dependent on external validation and rewards.
1032
00:38:00,333 –> 00:38:02,500
You’ve written quite a bit about the life of Seneca,
1033
00:38:02,566 –> 00:38:04,133
who lived in very tumultuous times,
1034
00:38:04,133 –> 00:38:05,766
and he responded to those
1035
00:38:05,766 –> 00:38:07,800
by striving to develop inner peace, apathy,
1036
00:38:08,000 –> 00:38:09,000
he calls it,
1037
00:38:09,000 –> 00:38:09,300
so that
1038
00:38:09,300 –> 00:38:11,866
even if the world is going crazy and is at war
1039
00:38:11,866 –> 00:38:13,133
and whatever is going on on the outside,
1040
00:38:13,133 –> 00:38:16,433
you can still be at peace on the inside and thrive even.
1041
00:38:16,433 –> 00:38:17,766
And on this point you write,
1042
00:38:17,766 –> 00:38:19,866
you have this great line and stillness is the key
1043
00:38:20,366 –> 00:38:21,166
where you write.
1044
00:38:21,166 –> 00:38:23,200
It’s ironic that stillness is rare
1045
00:38:23,200 –> 00:38:25,233
and fleeting in our busy lives
1046
00:38:25,233 –> 00:38:28,366
because the world creates an inexhaustible supply of it.
1047
00:38:28,733 –> 00:38:30,966
It’s just that nobody’s looking.
1048
00:38:30,966 –> 00:38:33,033
So this sounds like a really attractive
1049
00:38:33,033 –> 00:38:34,500
idea for a lot of us today.
1050
00:38:35,666 –> 00:38:37,700
How do we develop this in motion?
1051
00:38:37,700 –> 00:38:40,400
So while juggling a million things, working,
1052
00:38:40,566 –> 00:38:42,600
paying the bills, changing jobs,
1053
00:38:42,600 –> 00:38:44,633
managing friendships, some of us raising kids,
1054
00:38:45,000 –> 00:38:47,266
you have a lot of great historical examples on this,
1055
00:38:47,566 –> 00:38:48,300
but how do you manage
1056
00:38:48,300 –> 00:38:50,433
to consistently find and cultivate
1057
00:38:50,433 –> 00:38:53,100
this inner peace and stillness in these crazy times?
1058
00:38:53,433 –> 00:38:53,600
Well,
1059
00:38:53,600 –> 00:38:54,966
one of the things that’s been interesting
1060
00:38:54,966 –> 00:38:56,266
about the pandemic,
1061
00:38:56,266 –> 00:38:57,466
if we want to talk about the idea
1062
00:38:57,466 –> 00:38:59,000
of the obstacle in the ways,
1063
00:38:59,000 –> 00:38:59,366
is that
1064
00:38:59,366 –> 00:38:59,666
I think
1065
00:38:59,666 –> 00:39:01,866
it really challenged a lot of assumptions
1066
00:39:01,866 –> 00:39:02,733
that we had about
1067
00:39:02,733 –> 00:39:05,133
how our lives had to be set up,
1068
00:39:05,133 –> 00:39:08,133
like, Oh, I have to commute into the office every day.
1069
00:39:08,333 –> 00:39:10,333
Oh, I have to travel a lot for work,
1070
00:39:10,600 –> 00:39:13,166
Oh, I have to do a lot of in-person meetings
1071
00:39:13,466 –> 00:39:16,133
or I have to make X amount of dollars
1072
00:39:16,366 –> 00:39:18,666
or I have to do this, that or the other.
1073
00:39:19,066 –> 00:39:21,300
And then Cogan came along and said, No, you don’t,
1074
00:39:21,300 –> 00:39:23,466
and in fact, you can’t. Right?
1075
00:39:23,466 –> 00:39:26,100
And then we had to figure out what is life look like
1076
00:39:26,600 –> 00:39:28,700
with a whole bunch of things off, the table.
1077
00:39:29,400 –> 00:39:30,433
And now for me,
1078
00:39:30,433 –> 00:39:33,100
I found that actually being forced
1079
00:39:33,100 –> 00:39:34,700
to stop a lot of things helped me
1080
00:39:34,700 –> 00:39:38,366
be better at what I actually should have been doing and.
1081
00:39:38,366 –> 00:39:40,466
I actually like doing.
1082
00:39:40,466 –> 00:39:42,566
So I kind of see it as this
1083
00:39:42,566 –> 00:39:44,800
forced lifestyle experiment, right?
1084
00:39:44,800 –> 00:39:47,100
What is a lot less look like?
1085
00:39:47,100 –> 00:39:48,600
What does it look like when nobody’s
1086
00:39:48,600 –> 00:39:51,433
doing anything all at the same time? And so
1087
00:39:52,866 –> 00:39:56,033
when we think about stillness, we often think like, Oh,
1088
00:39:56,433 –> 00:39:57,900
I want to go on a ten day
1089
00:39:57,900 –> 00:40:00,300
silent meditation retreat or,
1090
00:40:00,533 –> 00:40:03,166
Oh, I’m going to go on a one month vacation
1091
00:40:03,433 –> 00:40:04,800
or I’m going to quit my job.
1092
00:40:04,800 –> 00:40:05,933
And then
1093
00:40:05,933 –> 00:40:08,233
when it’s some form of retirement,
1094
00:40:08,233 –> 00:40:10,933
finally have sort of peace and quiet.
1095
00:40:10,933 –> 00:40:13,300
And the reality is you can have those things right now.
1096
00:40:13,633 –> 00:40:14,033
Right?
1097
00:40:14,033 –> 00:40:15,733
And you should you need them right now
1098
00:40:15,733 –> 00:40:19,200
actually, to do what it is that you do.
1099
00:40:19,200 –> 00:40:21,733
And so I think for me, it’s just been interesting to
1100
00:40:21,833 –> 00:40:23,200
to sort of
1101
00:40:23,200 –> 00:40:26,400
have have having a sense to have redesigned my life
1102
00:40:26,400 –> 00:40:28,666
from the ground up a year and a half ago
1103
00:40:29,033 –> 00:40:30,600
and find that
1104
00:40:30,600 –> 00:40:33,100
all of a sudden the things that I can’t do that
1105
00:40:33,100 –> 00:40:35,366
I thought I had to do I actually don’t want to do
1106
00:40:35,366 –> 00:40:37,200
and I don’t need to do.
1107
00:40:37,200 –> 00:40:40,066
And and then I do the things that I do need to do
1108
00:40:40,066 –> 00:40:42,300
and that I do want to do better
1109
00:40:42,300 –> 00:40:45,100
when I am only focusing on that.
1110
00:40:45,100 –> 00:40:49,700
So to me, stillness is not like the absence of activity.
1111
00:40:50,466 –> 00:40:52,700
It can be very active.
1112
00:40:52,700 –> 00:40:56,266
It’s just the absence of inessential activity,
1113
00:40:56,700 –> 00:40:59,200
frivolous activity, frantic activity.
1114
00:40:59,566 –> 00:41:02,166
So then the things you are doing are coming.
1115
00:41:02,833 –> 00:41:03,866
You’re coming at them
1116
00:41:03,866 –> 00:41:08,133
from a place of stillness and self-control.
1117
00:41:08,133 –> 00:41:09,666
That’s a fantastic distinction.
1118
00:41:09,666 –> 00:41:12,600
And you had this great post on Daily Stoic,
1119
00:41:13,433 –> 00:41:14,266
a little conversation
1120
00:41:14,266 –> 00:41:16,433
between Joseph Heller and Kurt Vonnegut,
1121
00:41:16,433 –> 00:41:18,100
where they were at a party together
1122
00:41:18,100 –> 00:41:19,033
hosted by a billionaire.
1123
00:41:19,033 –> 00:41:20,700
And Vonnegut tells Heller,
1124
00:41:20,700 –> 00:41:22,500
this billionaire has made more this week
1125
00:41:22,500 –> 00:41:23,966
than your book ever will.
1126
00:41:23,966 –> 00:41:25,400
And Heller responds, Yes,
1127
00:41:25,400 –> 00:41:28,666
but I have something that he doesn’t, and that’s enough.
1128
00:41:29,400 –> 00:41:33,166
And it’s a super powerful message because enough isn’t
1129
00:41:33,433 –> 00:41:34,900
enough of what right enough
1130
00:41:34,900 –> 00:41:38,033
frantic activity, enough friends, followers, enough.
1131
00:41:39,000 –> 00:41:39,833
All of this stuff.
1132
00:41:39,833 –> 00:41:41,733
That doesn’t really matter.
1133
00:41:41,733 –> 00:41:42,933
It’s a moving target, right?
1134
00:41:42,933 –> 00:41:47,133
If we stay unfocused and undirected, in a sense,
1135
00:41:47,200 –> 00:41:48,066
there’s never enough.
1136
00:41:48,066 –> 00:41:50,300
I mean, we just keep chasing one pleasure after the other.
1137
00:41:50,966 –> 00:41:53,566
So I think that distinction that you just brought between,
1138
00:41:53,900 –> 00:41:54,766
you know, essential
1139
00:41:54,766 –> 00:41:57,833
really core important activity and frantic activity
1140
00:41:58,300 –> 00:42:00,133
is probably a great clue.
1141
00:42:00,133 –> 00:42:01,333
But in your life,
1142
00:42:01,333 –> 00:42:01,600
how do you
1143
00:42:01,600 –> 00:42:04,266
how do you get to that point of enough of satiation
1144
00:42:04,700 –> 00:42:07,266
but yet still have this tremendous drive
1145
00:42:07,266 –> 00:42:09,000
to keep going and keep doing
1146
00:42:09,000 –> 00:42:10,533
great work over and over again?
1147
00:42:10,533 –> 00:42:11,666
Well, you mentioned Seneca,
1148
00:42:11,666 –> 00:42:12,266
and I think that’s
1149
00:42:12,266 –> 00:42:14,000
one of the tragedies of Seneca’s
1150
00:42:14,000 –> 00:42:17,333
life, is that he was so busy, so ambitious
1151
00:42:17,600 –> 00:42:18,966
that it sort of ends up taking him.
1152
00:42:18,966 –> 00:42:20,666
It takes him to a very illustrious place,
1153
00:42:20,666 –> 00:42:22,666
but ultimately a very dark place.
1154
00:42:22,666 –> 00:42:25,633
And I guess for me, it goes back to where we started,
1155
00:42:25,633 –> 00:42:29,033
which is like, I’m not frantic or busy.
1156
00:42:29,300 –> 00:42:32,666
I like doing this one thing and I do that thing
1157
00:42:32,866 –> 00:42:35,100
steadily day in and day out.
1158
00:42:35,100 –> 00:42:39,533
And the byproduct of that is productivity.
1159
00:42:40,033 –> 00:42:42,700
So or publishable output, if you will.
1160
00:42:43,066 –> 00:42:46,133
So again, I’m not like I have to do a book a year.
1161
00:42:46,333 –> 00:42:48,900
I’m not like I have to write a certain number of books.
1162
00:42:48,900 –> 00:42:50,400
They all have to be best.
1163
00:42:50,400 –> 00:42:53,566
I go, What do I need to do today?
1164
00:42:53,566 –> 00:42:55,200
What’s my job today?
1165
00:42:55,200 –> 00:42:56,400
And I do that
1166
00:42:56,400 –> 00:42:59,533
and I just stack enough of those days on top of each other
1167
00:42:59,933 –> 00:43:01,800
and you get the output
1168
00:43:03,266 –> 00:43:05,833
that that people will think is impressive.
1169
00:43:07,300 –> 00:43:10,533
But but again, the output is not the goal.
1170
00:43:10,733 –> 00:43:14,300
The process is the goal. The daily routine is the goal.
1171
00:43:14,800 –> 00:43:16,266
The making, the small,
1172
00:43:16,266 –> 00:43:18,733
the small daily contribution is the goal.
1173
00:43:18,933 –> 00:43:21,300
The rest is extra.
1174
00:43:21,900 –> 00:43:23,500
It’s so interesting how there’s
1175
00:43:23,500 –> 00:43:25,133
almost like these crisscrossing parts
1176
00:43:25,133 –> 00:43:26,333
of like the way you talk.
1177
00:43:26,333 –> 00:43:27,900
When we look at your achievements,
1178
00:43:27,900 –> 00:43:31,000
it almost looks like crazy frantic activity.
1179
00:43:31,000 –> 00:43:32,066
It’s like all of these
1180
00:43:32,066 –> 00:43:34,533
these these things that you stack up right at your age.
1181
00:43:34,900 –> 00:43:36,166
And then there’s people also
1182
00:43:36,166 –> 00:43:38,800
that are like super busy, like all day,
1183
00:43:38,833 –> 00:43:40,666
like 15 hours a day, running around, running around.
1184
00:43:40,666 –> 00:43:42,900
And then you look at what they’re actually and it’s like,
1185
00:43:43,533 –> 00:43:44,900
not very much, right?
1186
00:43:44,900 –> 00:43:46,366
It’s almost like
1187
00:43:46,366 –> 00:43:47,500
the impression we get in
1188
00:43:47,500 –> 00:43:48,900
the immediate moment is almost like
1189
00:43:48,900 –> 00:43:50,933
the opposite of what we’re actually doing.
1190
00:43:50,933 –> 00:43:52,933
When you spread it out over time.
1191
00:43:52,933 –> 00:43:54,200
Well, I think
1192
00:43:54,200 –> 00:43:56,200
one of the things I talk about when I talk to sports
1193
00:43:56,200 –> 00:43:57,866
teams is as I sort of say, well,
1194
00:43:57,866 –> 00:43:59,866
what are you going to say no to this year?
1195
00:44:00,166 –> 00:44:01,500
Because everything that we say yes
1196
00:44:01,500 –> 00:44:03,800
to means saying no to something else
1197
00:44:03,800 –> 00:44:04,666
and everything we say
1198
00:44:04,666 –> 00:44:07,166
no to means the opportunity to say yes to something else.
1199
00:44:07,200 –> 00:44:10,233
So a big part of it is like, what do you say no to?
1200
00:44:10,466 –> 00:44:12,900
And I think that that has been a helpful lesson to me.
1201
00:44:12,900 –> 00:44:15,000
It’s like, Oh, there’s a lot more things
1202
00:44:15,000 –> 00:44:17,400
that when they suddenly became illegal
1203
00:44:17,400 –> 00:44:19,833
or suddenly became impossible,
1204
00:44:19,833 –> 00:44:22,300
my productivity and my satisfaction,
1205
00:44:22,300 –> 00:44:24,600
both at home and at work, went up.
1206
00:44:24,600 –> 00:44:28,533
And so as the world does return to some semblance of normal
1207
00:44:28,533 –> 00:44:31,333
where these things are possible again, now,
1208
00:44:31,333 –> 00:44:34,000
I’m going to have to be more active in actively
1209
00:44:34,000 –> 00:44:35,866
saying no to them, as opposed to them
1210
00:44:35,866 –> 00:44:39,100
just sort of being not up for discussion.
1211
00:44:39,533 –> 00:44:41,966
So so that was one of the blessings of the pandemic, right?
1212
00:44:41,966 –> 00:44:44,166
It stopped all this extraneous activity
1213
00:44:44,466 –> 00:44:47,200
and forced people to stay focused, stay in their zone.
1214
00:44:47,900 –> 00:44:49,666
You know, what are the relationships that really matter,
1215
00:44:49,666 –> 00:44:51,400
what the things that really matter in my life?
1216
00:44:51,400 –> 00:44:52,833
I find that that’s really been
1217
00:44:52,833 –> 00:44:53,633
one of the
1218
00:44:53,633 –> 00:44:57,466
the great in a sense, of hidden blessings of the pandemic.
1219
00:44:57,966 –> 00:45:00,700
And it does when we talk about the obstacle being the way
1220
00:45:00,933 –> 00:45:02,200
it’s not that oh,
1221
00:45:02,200 –> 00:45:04,533
that made the pandemic worth it,
1222
00:45:04,533 –> 00:45:07,733
but it was the good you managed to derive
1223
00:45:07,733 –> 00:45:09,100
from the pandemic right?
1224
00:45:09,100 –> 00:45:11,033
Because that’s all we can focus, right?
1225
00:45:12,033 –> 00:45:13,333
I’m not saying that,
1226
00:45:13,333 –> 00:45:15,333
you know, 700,000
1227
00:45:15,333 –> 00:45:17,466
American deaths was worth me
1228
00:45:17,666 –> 00:45:20,666
being slightly more productive as a writer
1229
00:45:20,800 –> 00:45:22,933
and happier at home. That would be insane.
1230
00:45:23,133 –> 00:45:24,500
What I’m saying is
1231
00:45:24,500 –> 00:45:29,066
that the only thing I was able to focus on was that.
1232
00:45:29,066 –> 00:45:31,833
And so that’s what I’ve managed to derive from it.
1233
00:45:32,966 –> 00:45:34,800
Hmm. That’s great.
1234
00:45:34,800 –> 00:45:36,500
If there’s one maybe not criticism,
1235
00:45:36,500 –> 00:45:37,733
but something a lot of people say
1236
00:45:37,733 –> 00:45:39,733
is missing from Stoicism, It’s
1237
00:45:39,733 –> 00:45:42,900
that it’s too serious, it’s too internally focused,
1238
00:45:43,233 –> 00:45:44,700
and that it doesn’t emphasize
1239
00:45:44,700 –> 00:45:47,466
positive emotions like empathy, love, joy,
1240
00:45:47,800 –> 00:45:49,100
or positive relationships.
1241
00:45:49,100 –> 00:45:51,600
And at least not not as much as other philosophies do.
1242
00:45:52,033 –> 00:45:54,366
Even in ancient Greece, people used to call the Stoics
1243
00:45:54,366 –> 00:45:56,100
the men of stone.
1244
00:45:56,100 –> 00:45:59,066
I know your book on Courage is the first of four
1245
00:45:59,066 –> 00:46:01,200
that you’re writing on the four great stoic virtues
1246
00:46:01,400 –> 00:46:03,733
courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom.
1247
00:46:04,433 –> 00:46:06,600
What I found really interesting is that these virtues
1248
00:46:06,900 –> 00:46:09,066
intersect perfectly with
1249
00:46:09,066 –> 00:46:10,900
the six great virtues that Marty Seligman,
1250
00:46:10,900 –> 00:46:12,900
the father of positive psychology, talks about.
1251
00:46:12,900 –> 00:46:15,033
So the four virtues are the same.
1252
00:46:15,033 –> 00:46:16,166
But then he adds two more.
1253
00:46:16,166 –> 00:46:19,633
He adds empathy or love, and then beauty or transcendence.
1254
00:46:20,133 –> 00:46:22,666
And it’s kind of similar to the thought that I read
1255
00:46:22,666 –> 00:46:24,266
recently that Jonathan Haidt had
1256
00:46:24,266 –> 00:46:25,866
when he wrote the Happiness hypothesis.
1257
00:46:25,866 –> 00:46:28,200
He says that when he started writing the book,
1258
00:46:28,200 –> 00:46:31,500
he like the Stoics, that happiness comes from within.
1259
00:46:32,100 –> 00:46:34,266
But by the time he’d finished writing the book,
1260
00:46:34,266 –> 00:46:36,433
he changed his mind to happiness
1261
00:46:36,433 –> 00:46:39,300
comes from between from getting the right relationships
1262
00:46:39,866 –> 00:46:41,966
and living for something greater than yourself.
1263
00:46:42,433 –> 00:46:43,666
I know you’re a family man.
1264
00:46:43,666 –> 00:46:46,200
I know that you give advice that helps millions of people.
1265
00:46:46,700 –> 00:46:48,200
What’s your view?
1266
00:46:48,200 –> 00:46:50,366
The importance of empathy, love,
1267
00:46:50,366 –> 00:46:51,600
positive relationships
1268
00:46:51,600 –> 00:46:53,666
and their role in living the good life.
1269
00:46:53,666 –> 00:46:56,400
So I would say that those two things you said about sort of
1270
00:46:57,466 –> 00:46:59,233
beauty and transcendence and
1271
00:46:59,233 –> 00:47:00,600
then about
1272
00:47:00,700 –> 00:47:03,233
relationships and empathy and love,
1273
00:47:03,500 –> 00:47:05,966
I would just I would say they’re very important.
1274
00:47:06,133 –> 00:47:06,800
I would agree
1275
00:47:06,800 –> 00:47:08,900
they’re not talked about enough instances,
1276
00:47:09,300 –> 00:47:11,133
but I would say that they clearly fall
1277
00:47:11,133 –> 00:47:13,200
under the buckets of justice and wisdom.
1278
00:47:13,766 –> 00:47:17,166
Wisdom is not simply the study of books,
1279
00:47:17,400 –> 00:47:20,900
but also the study of nature, the understanding of nature,
1280
00:47:21,166 –> 00:47:21,900
the understanding
1281
00:47:21,900 –> 00:47:25,833
that some things are ineffable and cannot be articulated,
1282
00:47:25,833 –> 00:47:28,433
but can only be experience, right?
1283
00:47:28,433 –> 00:47:31,433
So to me, that all falls into the bucket of of wisdom.
1284
00:47:31,433 –> 00:47:33,433
And I think the Stoics actually talk about beauty
1285
00:47:33,433 –> 00:47:34,766
quite a great deal,
1286
00:47:34,766 –> 00:47:38,100
not sort of superficial beauty of like a woman’s face,
1287
00:47:38,100 –> 00:47:39,433
but the beauty of,
1288
00:47:39,433 –> 00:47:43,066
you know, a sunset or the way doves
1289
00:47:43,066 –> 00:47:44,700
fly together or whatever
1290
00:47:45,733 –> 00:47:47,900
as far as love and empathy, to me, this
1291
00:47:47,900 –> 00:47:48,766
this fits
1292
00:47:48,766 –> 00:47:52,433
very clearly under justice, not justice in the legal sense,
1293
00:47:52,766 –> 00:47:56,233
but justice in the sense of like, what are our obligations?
1294
00:47:56,433 –> 00:47:58,933
What are what produces meaning?
1295
00:48:00,000 –> 00:48:02,666
You know, what is our true purpose on this planet?
1296
00:48:02,900 –> 00:48:04,533
It’s other people, right?
1297
00:48:04,533 –> 00:48:07,533
It’s the it’s the good we’re able to do for
1298
00:48:07,533 –> 00:48:09,000
and through other people.
1299
00:48:09,000 –> 00:48:11,666
So I agree they’re very important
1300
00:48:11,666 –> 00:48:14,366
and they’re they’re certainly major priorities in my life.
1301
00:48:14,700 –> 00:48:17,000
You know, as I first started writing about Stoicism,
1302
00:48:17,000 –> 00:48:19,966
I was more interested in courage and self-discipline,
1303
00:48:19,966 –> 00:48:22,700
the sort of independent
1304
00:48:23,866 –> 00:48:26,633
like sort of of the world virtues.
1305
00:48:26,633 –> 00:48:29,200
But I think as you study it and you learn more about it,
1306
00:48:30,300 –> 00:48:32,566
you eventually these other doors open
1307
00:48:32,566 –> 00:48:33,866
and you come to understand them
1308
00:48:33,866 –> 00:48:36,766
as being equally important and fulfilling.
1309
00:48:36,766 –> 00:48:38,800
Amazing. Yeah, that’s often the case, right?
1310
00:48:38,866 –> 00:48:40,533
You’ve got the sort of the general
1311
00:48:40,533 –> 00:48:42,000
understanding of a certain school of thought,
1312
00:48:42,000 –> 00:48:43,466
and then when you get deeper into the ideas,
1313
00:48:43,466 –> 00:48:43,866
you find that
1314
00:48:43,866 –> 00:48:46,300
those thinkers have actually talked about,
1315
00:48:46,300 –> 00:48:48,166
you know, a lot of the things that that, you know,
1316
00:48:48,166 –> 00:48:49,300
might not seem obvious
1317
00:48:49,300 –> 00:48:51,400
when you think of stoicism, you think of this really like
1318
00:48:51,400 –> 00:48:53,700
stern self-control, self-discipline.
1319
00:48:54,133 –> 00:48:55,366
But then you get a little bit deeper
1320
00:48:55,366 –> 00:48:56,733
into the into the writings,
1321
00:48:56,733 –> 00:48:58,266
and you realize that they do talk about
1322
00:48:58,266 –> 00:48:59,800
about a lot of these other themes.
1323
00:48:59,800 –> 00:49:00,700
And when you really
1324
00:49:00,700 –> 00:49:01,200
I know that you
1325
00:49:01,200 –> 00:49:01,833
the Stoics,
1326
00:49:01,833 –> 00:49:04,000
whereas people they were husbands
1327
00:49:04,000 –> 00:49:05,000
and fathers
1328
00:49:05,000 –> 00:49:07,000
and sons and daughters,
1329
00:49:07,000 –> 00:49:10,233
they held public office, they fought for causes.
1330
00:49:10,233 –> 00:49:11,833
They wrote poetry.
1331
00:49:11,833 –> 00:49:14,766
You know, they, they, they tended gardens.
1332
00:49:15,033 –> 00:49:18,633
So the idea that these were these, like, unfeeling beasts
1333
00:49:18,966 –> 00:49:21,166
disconnected from the world,
1334
00:49:21,166 –> 00:49:23,800
I mean, it’s just not borne out by the facts.
1335
00:49:23,800 –> 00:49:25,966
And, you know, they weren’t monks, right?
1336
00:49:25,966 –> 00:49:27,600
They didn’t live in monasteries.
1337
00:49:27,600 –> 00:49:28,200
They were
1338
00:49:28,200 –> 00:49:30,066
of all the philosophical school
1339
00:49:30,066 –> 00:49:33,000
is the most like of this earth,
1340
00:49:33,300 –> 00:49:37,233
like the most connected and involved and participatory
1341
00:49:37,533 –> 00:49:41,600
of all of the all of the philosophical schools.
1342
00:49:42,633 –> 00:49:44,966
And actually, this is the fundamental contrast
1343
00:49:44,966 –> 00:49:47,100
between stoicism and epicureanism.
1344
00:49:47,100 –> 00:49:48,233
It’s not that the Stoics didn’t
1345
00:49:48,233 –> 00:49:50,800
like pleasure, and the Epicureans did
1346
00:49:51,033 –> 00:49:54,300
is that the Epicureans
1347
00:49:54,300 –> 00:49:58,766
pursued those interests at the expense of participation
1348
00:49:58,766 –> 00:50:00,133
in public life.
1349
00:50:00,133 –> 00:50:03,233
And the Stoics said, No, we are obligated to each other
1350
00:50:03,233 –> 00:50:04,700
and that relationships are important
1351
00:50:04,700 –> 00:50:07,200
and that you can’t run away to your little garden
1352
00:50:07,200 –> 00:50:09,000
and live in a fantasy world.
1353
00:50:09,000 –> 00:50:11,566
And so I see Stoicism as a philosophy
1354
00:50:11,566 –> 00:50:13,466
that’s engaged with other people.
1355
00:50:13,466 –> 00:50:15,900
And and they’re primarily for other people.
1356
00:50:16,566 –> 00:50:17,066
Interesting.
1357
00:50:17,066 –> 00:50:18,533
So also looking at the way
1358
00:50:18,533 –> 00:50:20,433
these philosophers live their lives,
1359
00:50:20,433 –> 00:50:22,366
not just like the first reading that you might
1360
00:50:22,366 –> 00:50:24,300
you might get off of their readings.
1361
00:50:24,300 –> 00:50:25,700
That’s a great distinction as well.
1362
00:50:25,700 –> 00:50:26,700
I know that you’ve
1363
00:50:26,700 –> 00:50:28,533
you recently just opened up an independent
1364
00:50:28,533 –> 00:50:30,166
bookstore in Bastrop, Texas.
1365
00:50:30,166 –> 00:50:31,700
I’m curious to know,
1366
00:50:31,700 –> 00:50:33,200
what do you feel
1367
00:50:33,200 –> 00:50:36,933
the future of the bookstore is in an age of Amazon?
1368
00:50:37,566 –> 00:50:39,533
So it’s been interesting.
1369
00:50:39,533 –> 00:50:40,800
First off,
1370
00:50:41,100 –> 00:50:43,366
probably the worst possible business
1371
00:50:43,366 –> 00:50:45,500
that you could try to open during a pandemic,
1372
00:50:45,733 –> 00:50:48,600
probably the worst possible business you could open, period
1373
00:50:49,166 –> 00:50:49,700
in a world
1374
00:50:49,700 –> 00:50:52,333
where most people don’t read and most people that do read,
1375
00:50:52,333 –> 00:50:54,500
buy online or read audio books or, whatever.
1376
00:50:55,366 –> 00:50:57,466
But it was just it was just something important to me.
1377
00:50:57,466 –> 00:50:59,700
It was something I felt like would would do some good
1378
00:50:59,700 –> 00:51:02,066
in this little community that I’m in. And then,
1379
00:51:03,233 –> 00:51:04,966
you know, something I felt like
1380
00:51:04,966 –> 00:51:07,533
could be additive to what I was already doing
1381
00:51:07,533 –> 00:51:10,933
without much additional work, like I needed office space.
1382
00:51:11,266 –> 00:51:12,900
And then I had this sort of storefront
1383
00:51:12,900 –> 00:51:15,033
beneath the office and I’m sort of what would I do with it?
1384
00:51:15,800 –> 00:51:17,366
And, you know, it’s it’s
1385
00:51:17,366 –> 00:51:20,266
it’s actually integrated in nicely with with the stuff
1386
00:51:20,866 –> 00:51:21,733
that I was already doing.
1387
00:51:21,733 –> 00:51:22,500
The only,
1388
00:51:22,500 –> 00:51:24,066
the only part that
1389
00:51:24,066 –> 00:51:26,900
makes me sad about it is that I part of it
1390
00:51:26,900 –> 00:51:28,766
was I wanted to really interact with people.
1391
00:51:28,766 –> 00:51:32,166
I wanted to do events, I wanted to meet fans.
1392
00:51:32,533 –> 00:51:36,433
I wanted to have I wanted to interact with human beings.
1393
00:51:36,433 –> 00:51:39,833
And the pandemic still makes that a little bit difficult,
1394
00:51:40,000 –> 00:51:42,866
is those experiences where humans connect to humans,
1395
00:51:42,866 –> 00:51:44,400
which not something you get when you order
1396
00:51:44,400 –> 00:51:46,100
something on Prime or Amazon.
1397
00:51:46,100 –> 00:51:48,166
Yeah, it’s certainly not a get rich quick scheme.
1398
00:51:48,166 –> 00:51:51,033
Opening an independent bookstore in 2021.
1399
00:51:52,233 –> 00:51:53,233
I think.
1400
00:51:53,233 –> 00:51:53,866
You know, I think
1401
00:51:53,866 –> 00:51:55,300
there’s something special about bookstores.
1402
00:51:55,300 –> 00:51:58,000
Stoicism is actually founded in a bookstore,
1403
00:51:58,600 –> 00:52:01,600
so I sort of loved the continuity of that
1404
00:52:02,633 –> 00:52:04,400
and that that’s where the name comes from.
1405
00:52:04,400 –> 00:52:06,700
It’s called the Painted Porch, which is the name of what
1406
00:52:06,933 –> 00:52:08,033
the ancient stoic
1407
00:52:08,033 –> 00:52:13,600
translates from it into English from Greek.
1408
00:52:13,600 –> 00:52:15,833
But but I felt like like
1409
00:52:16,300 –> 00:52:18,466
I have a podcast that reaches millions of people.
1410
00:52:18,466 –> 00:52:19,366
I have,
1411
00:52:19,466 –> 00:52:21,266
you know, social media that reaches millions of people.
1412
00:52:21,266 –> 00:52:23,133
My books have sold all over the world.
1413
00:52:23,133 –> 00:52:24,500
But all of that is digital.
1414
00:52:24,500 –> 00:52:25,066
I think
1415
00:52:25,066 –> 00:52:25,566
at this point,
1416
00:52:25,566 –> 00:52:29,866
something like 60% of my sales are in e-book or audio form.
1417
00:52:30,300 –> 00:52:34,066
So but we exist in a physical world, right?
1418
00:52:34,066 –> 00:52:35,100
The digital world is wonderful,
1419
00:52:35,100 –> 00:52:37,133
but we exist in a physical world.
1420
00:52:37,133 –> 00:52:39,066
And so it just felt sort of special
1421
00:52:39,066 –> 00:52:41,800
and important to do something like real.
1422
00:52:41,800 –> 00:52:43,266
And that’s what I was excited to do.
1423
00:52:44,400 –> 00:52:44,900
Right now.
1424
00:52:44,900 –> 00:52:46,600
You’ve got a lot of projects going on.
1425
00:52:46,600 –> 00:52:48,366
Obviously, you’ve got the four books
1426
00:52:48,366 –> 00:52:50,166
on the great Stoic Virtues.
1427
00:52:50,166 –> 00:52:53,833
You’ve opened up the bookstore in Bastrop, Texas.
1428
00:52:53,866 –> 00:52:54,300
Who knows?
1429
00:52:54,300 –> 00:52:56,566
I think you’re maybe even cooking up another
1430
00:52:56,566 –> 00:52:59,600
Grammy Award winning rap album this time. Hopefully not.
1431
00:53:00,200 –> 00:53:02,300
I know you’re a student of Victor Frankl’s
1432
00:53:02,600 –> 00:53:03,633
the constant
1433
00:53:03,633 –> 00:53:04,933
concentration camp survivor
1434
00:53:04,933 –> 00:53:07,133
who founded Logo Therapy, a form of therapy
1435
00:53:07,133 –> 00:53:09,366
where you try to find meaning in life.
1436
00:53:09,366 –> 00:53:10,466
And you’ve also written about this,
1437
00:53:10,466 –> 00:53:12,533
about how Frankl used to hate the question
1438
00:53:12,700 –> 00:53:13,633
What’s the meaning of life?
1439
00:53:13,633 –> 00:53:15,233
As if somebody could just tell you, right?
1440
00:53:15,233 –> 00:53:17,700
Instead, he says that life itself is a question
1441
00:53:17,700 –> 00:53:19,733
and it’s your job to answer with your actions.
1442
00:53:20,000 –> 00:53:20,700
In one of his stories,
1443
00:53:20,700 –> 00:53:23,166
he also talks about the analogy of a chess game.
1444
00:53:23,166 –> 00:53:24,100
Right, people?
1445
00:53:24,100 –> 00:53:25,766
He goes asking what the meaning of life is.
1446
00:53:25,766 –> 00:53:27,866
It’s almost like asking, what’s the best chess move?
1447
00:53:28,333 –> 00:53:30,366
It’s a meaningless question in a vacuum.
1448
00:53:30,366 –> 00:53:32,433
It depends on where you are in the game,
1449
00:53:32,433 –> 00:53:33,133
who you’re playing,
1450
00:53:33,133 –> 00:53:35,366
what your level of skills are, and so on and so forth.
1451
00:53:36,000 –> 00:53:37,400
My question to you is,
1452
00:53:37,400 –> 00:53:38,600
having achieved everything
1453
00:53:38,600 –> 00:53:41,066
you’ve achieved already at your young age,
1454
00:53:41,733 –> 00:53:44,666
having earned the freedom, the independence, the platform,
1455
00:53:44,666 –> 00:53:46,266
the options that you have in front of you,
1456
00:53:47,600 –> 00:53:48,433
what do you see as
1457
00:53:48,433 –> 00:53:50,633
your most important or meaningful work
1458
00:53:50,766 –> 00:53:53,166
and mission in life stretching into the future?
1459
00:53:53,766 –> 00:53:56,900
Well, I guess first off, you would say as a parent,
1460
00:53:56,933 –> 00:53:57,633
you know,
1461
00:53:58,300 –> 00:54:02,433
your greatest shot at of multi-generational impact
1462
00:54:02,433 –> 00:54:03,866
is that home, Right?
1463
00:54:03,866 –> 00:54:06,533
So working on yourself,
1464
00:54:06,533 –> 00:54:08,000
working on your abilities
1465
00:54:08,000 –> 00:54:12,433
as a parent is probably the the most important
1466
00:54:13,000 –> 00:54:14,333
contribution you make,
1467
00:54:14,333 –> 00:54:16,666
certainly the most direct contribution
1468
00:54:16,666 –> 00:54:17,866
you will make to anyone.
1469
00:54:17,866 –> 00:54:19,633
So I take that very seriously.
1470
00:54:19,633 –> 00:54:22,133
And certainly the pandemic has helped with that.
1471
00:54:22,766 –> 00:54:25,700
But I guess as a as a professional,
1472
00:54:25,700 –> 00:54:26,933
I see my
1473
00:54:26,933 –> 00:54:30,066
my contribution in taking ancient ideas
1474
00:54:30,066 –> 00:54:32,200
and making them applicable to modern life.
1475
00:54:32,500 –> 00:54:35,200
And that is something I’m doing for both myself
1476
00:54:35,466 –> 00:54:37,233
and for the audience.
1477
00:54:37,233 –> 00:54:40,500
So I take a lot of satisfaction, but also get a lot of
1478
00:54:40,866 –> 00:54:42,900
joy and fulfillment and
1479
00:54:43,866 –> 00:54:46,200
excitement out of taking
1480
00:54:46,733 –> 00:54:49,266
stories that I’ve found, ideas that I found and
1481
00:54:49,400 –> 00:54:51,700
and communicating them in a way
1482
00:54:51,966 –> 00:54:54,800
that’s compelling and interesting to people.
1483
00:54:54,800 –> 00:54:57,200
I to me, one of the highest bits of praise
1484
00:54:57,200 –> 00:54:59,066
you can get as an author is someone will go,
1485
00:54:59,066 –> 00:55:01,366
I haven’t read a book in years, you know,
1486
00:55:01,400 –> 00:55:04,133
and I read your book. I like to take.
1487
00:55:04,133 –> 00:55:08,566
I am particularly proud that my books have
1488
00:55:09,066 –> 00:55:10,800
are primarily popular with people
1489
00:55:10,800 –> 00:55:13,566
who are not interested in philosophy. Right.
1490
00:55:14,266 –> 00:55:15,700
Because that’s how, you know,
1491
00:55:15,700 –> 00:55:20,833
you’re you’re actually introducing people to new ideas
1492
00:55:21,100 –> 00:55:22,866
as opposed to just
1493
00:55:22,866 –> 00:55:25,666
retreading the same tired things
1494
00:55:25,666 –> 00:55:27,866
to the same small group of people.
1495
00:55:27,866 –> 00:55:28,100
Yeah.
1496
00:55:28,100 –> 00:55:29,566
Your approach is almost the opposite of like,
1497
00:55:29,566 –> 00:55:31,333
you know, philosophy in the classroom, right?
1498
00:55:31,333 –> 00:55:32,166
Super highly
1499
00:55:32,166 –> 00:55:33,966
technical jargon,
1500
00:55:33,966 –> 00:55:37,000
verbose of complicated, difficult to understand,
1501
00:55:37,633 –> 00:55:41,133
kind of confusing complexity of argument with intelligence.
1502
00:55:41,133 –> 00:55:43,633
You try to cut through all of that
1503
00:55:43,933 –> 00:55:45,333
and try to find ways to deliver that,
1504
00:55:45,333 –> 00:55:46,800
that direct insight,
1505
00:55:46,800 –> 00:55:48,700
that direct impact to the reader
1506
00:55:48,700 –> 00:55:49,800
I think that’s one of the reasons
1507
00:55:49,800 –> 00:55:52,200
your books have been so, so successful.
1508
00:55:52,200 –> 00:55:52,333
Well,
1509
00:55:52,333 –> 00:55:53,533
I’ve learned that from Robert GREENE,
1510
00:55:53,533 –> 00:55:54,833
that the best way to teach
1511
00:55:54,833 –> 00:55:57,966
and to illustrate is through story
1512
00:55:57,966 –> 00:56:00,300
that you show rather than tell.
1513
00:56:00,300 –> 00:56:02,033
And so
1514
00:56:02,100 –> 00:56:03,333
from the beginning,
1515
00:56:03,333 –> 00:56:06,900
my books have been illustrations of philosophical ideas,
1516
00:56:07,233 –> 00:56:11,833
rather than explanations or discussions about
1517
00:56:12,200 –> 00:56:13,500
philosophical ideas.
1518
00:56:14,933 –> 00:56:15,233
Hmm.
1519
00:56:15,500 –> 00:56:16,833
Yeah, it’s a great distinction as well.
1520
00:56:16,833 –> 00:56:19,500
It just accelerates the learning process, accelerates,
1521
00:56:20,566 –> 00:56:24,633
you know, the absorption of the insights by the readers.
1522
00:56:24,633 –> 00:56:26,866
So you’re really kind of thinking of the reader first.
1523
00:56:26,866 –> 00:56:29,033
It’s a great approach that you guys have.
1524
00:56:29,966 –> 00:56:30,633
So. Right.
1525
00:56:30,633 –> 00:56:33,100
I want I want to really thank you so much for this.
1526
00:56:33,633 –> 00:56:34,966
You’re doing really important,
1527
00:56:34,966 –> 00:56:37,566
invaluable work, in my opinion, raising
1528
00:56:37,566 –> 00:56:38,700
the collective consciousness,
1529
00:56:38,700 –> 00:56:40,800
spreading useful knowledge to millions of people.
1530
00:56:41,200 –> 00:56:44,000
I think this was a great blend of like modern
1531
00:56:44,000 –> 00:56:46,700
strategic thinking, like very practical,
1532
00:56:46,700 –> 00:56:48,966
very tactical, very immediate,
1533
00:56:48,966 –> 00:56:51,533
and but also blending that with deep wisdom
1534
00:56:51,833 –> 00:56:52,300
in your work
1535
00:56:52,300 –> 00:56:53,266
that always makes it really,
1536
00:56:53,266 –> 00:56:55,166
really interesting and valuable.
1537
00:56:55,166 –> 00:56:58,466
Helping people develop more resilience, more inner peace,
1538
00:56:58,733 –> 00:57:01,600
more resolve, and focus on doing great work
1539
00:57:01,600 –> 00:57:03,900
by controlling what they can control.
1540
00:57:03,900 –> 00:57:06,700
I personally can’t wait to read your books on the force
1541
00:57:06,700 –> 00:57:08,366
talk virtues as a lawyer,
1542
00:57:08,366 –> 00:57:10,666
especially the one on Justice, but all the others as well.
1543
00:57:10,966 –> 00:57:12,966
Obviously, wisdom is always a big one
1544
00:57:12,966 –> 00:57:15,700
and it’s a it’s a complex topic
1545
00:57:15,700 –> 00:57:17,800
and I can’t wait to see how you how you tackle that.
1546
00:57:18,900 –> 00:57:20,033
Keep doing what you’re doing, man.
1547
00:57:20,033 –> 00:57:21,800
It’s fantastic stuff.
1548
00:57:21,800 –> 00:57:22,533
I look forward to
1549
00:57:22,533 –> 00:57:26,033
what the future has in store for you and I can’t wait to
1550
00:57:26,400 –> 00:57:27,733
to consume more of it.
1551
00:57:27,733 –> 00:57:29,866
Well, thank you and congratulations on this.
1552
00:57:30,133 –> 00:57:30,900
This new path.
1553
00:57:30,900 –> 00:57:32,300
I imagine it’s
1554
00:57:32,300 –> 00:57:35,633
requiring a variety of different muscles
1555
00:57:35,633 –> 00:57:36,700
and head
1556
00:57:36,700 –> 00:57:38,400
scratching a bunch of different itches
1557
00:57:38,400 –> 00:57:41,233
than than the corporate legal world.
1558
00:57:41,233 –> 00:57:41,666
Absolutely.
1559
00:57:41,666 –> 00:57:42,966
It’s exactly what you said earlier
1560
00:57:42,966 –> 00:57:44,133
about picking a new path.
1561
00:57:44,133 –> 00:57:45,466
I mean, you picked a new path. It’s great.
1562
00:57:45,466 –> 00:57:47,066
You’ve got this vision, you’ve got this ambition.
1563
00:57:47,066 –> 00:57:47,833
But at the same time,
1564
00:57:47,833 –> 00:57:49,600
you don’t necessarily yet
1565
00:57:49,600 –> 00:57:52,233
have the skills, have the experience,
1566
00:57:52,233 –> 00:57:54,166
have you haven’t trained those muscles yet.
1567
00:57:54,166 –> 00:57:56,400
So it’s a it’s a whole new challenge.
1568
00:57:56,400 –> 00:57:57,366
And I think part of it
1569
00:57:57,366 –> 00:58:00,166
all, part of the joy also is picking a new challenge
1570
00:58:00,166 –> 00:58:02,766
and going back with that beginner’s mind
1571
00:58:02,766 –> 00:58:05,266
where the Japanese talk about beginner’s mind.
1572
00:58:05,266 –> 00:58:07,566
I forget what the term is for that. I think it’s a
1573
00:58:09,200 –> 00:58:10,366
shochu or something.
1574
00:58:10,366 –> 00:58:11,500
I don’t want to mess it up.
1575
00:58:11,500 –> 00:58:12,966
But there’s that that notion
1576
00:58:12,966 –> 00:58:16,033
of approaching it with a beginner’s mindset.
1577
00:58:16,033 –> 00:58:16,733
And, you know,
1578
00:58:16,733 –> 00:58:19,133
if you’re a learner, you always get excited with that.
1579
00:58:19,133 –> 00:58:21,033
And I resonated what you said earlier
1580
00:58:21,033 –> 00:58:24,000
when you made those big transitions.
1581
00:58:24,000 –> 00:58:25,866
That’s sort of like part of what what drives
1582
00:58:25,866 –> 00:58:27,666
you forward is picking a new mountain
1583
00:58:27,666 –> 00:58:29,700
to climb and seeing seeing what you can make of it.
1584
00:58:30,033 –> 00:58:31,766
What at the very least is not boring
1585
00:58:31,766 –> 00:58:33,800
because you’ve never done it before.
1586
00:58:33,800 –> 00:58:34,600
That’s right.
1587
00:58:34,600 –> 00:58:36,800
That’s right. Thanks a lot, Ryan.
1588
00:58:36,800 –> 00:58:37,466
Appreciate it.
1589
00:58:37,466 –> 00:58:38,900
Thank you for having me.